Sabre with unknown origins

kronckew · 11th July 2018, 01:52 PM

..and finally (Allah be praised!

)

AJ1356 · 12th July 2018, 02:44 PM

دران وقتیکه دختر داد با علی سر افرازش when he gave (in marriage) his daughter to Ali honored him.
شنیدستم که فخر آل آدم محمد پاشا هر دو عالم I have heard (that is the best I could make out of it) that pride of children of Adam, Muhammad king of both worlds.

AJ1356 · 12th July 2018, 03:27 PM

سر افگنده و بر کشیده کلاه در آمد یپایین )از( تخت شاه
بهرچه خوش آید بدند آن او نتابند گردن ز فرمان او
اشارت کند تا رقیبان تخت بسازند با شاه فیروز بخت
With head lowered (ashamed) and hat (crown) removed
The king came down from his throne
Whatever he (this is someone else) liked they gave to him
They would not stray from his orders
Gestures so the competitors for the throne
Cooperate with the glorious king.

These six verse are from a bigger poem I am not sure what, or who is the poet.

the other side sounds fragmented there are 5 verses which does not sound right and the only ones that rhyme are verse 3 and 4. I could not make out the ones indicated before, even with the better pictures.

kronckew · 13th July 2018, 06:02 AM

Thanks for all the effort. I'm sure he will be happy with that. the tip of the salawar was a bit corroded I gather, and looks like it was not as well etched on the one side...Looks a bit like it was done with a stencil that didn't quite fit.
best regards,
Wayne

edited:
He's just sent me some final pics of the salawar after a bit more cleaning (he's a professional restorer by the way, unlike me.) along with his thanks for a job well and speedily done. I've rotated & cropped them a bit to fit the max size here (that's why some have odd corners

) Not sure if that unclear side is any more intelligible.

kronckew · 13th July 2018, 07:14 PM

Just for interest, The owner polished and etched a small area on the talwar, he says it looks more like a small tight birdseye Damascus pattern welding rather than the wootz he's handled before.

ariel · 13th July 2018, 11:00 PM

Unless his and mine understanding of what “ Birdseye Damascus” signifies, I would worry: that pattern is frequently seen on modern Indian replicas . I am always leery about intact etched or silvered inscriptions on blades: fighting swords were sharpened and cleaned repeatedly and the chances of the inscription to remain intact were rather slim.

I might be wrong, though.

kronckew · 14th July 2018, 09:02 AM

The pattern on the hilt of the talwar only is like a random laminate Damascus, not birdseye, birdseye is something that is modern, very seldom did rigid patterns get used on old swords like this and I perhaps should have put random laminate, because its clearly a folded laminate but not necessarily is Damascus, to clarify it's laminated, the blade is an old one without a single doubt and is likely wootz but because of its age and that he is unable to polish it because of the etched area along it he can not etch to show the wootz, but it is there, none of these are modern swords in any way and, blades have been etched since early times and there is no reason to think then not old or modern because they have etched designs on them, I misunderstood what he was saying and that it could well be wootz blade, laminated steel hilt, and that the hilt has silver ring shapes inlaid into it. And with a steel pin through it to keep the blade in, is unlike most indian talwars.

My thoughts are that as it may be afghan made, and not as was said captured or traded, if you look at the hilt cross guard section you will see something here that no one yet has noticed, the ball ends of the cross guard are pointing down in a curve towards the blade, unlike Indian Tulwars which all are straight, and if you look at the Pulwar from Afghanistan they to curve down much more, so. I am wondering if this is not a Shamshir and made in Afghanistan,and the whole sword now cleaned certainly looks a lot older than both of the others, in fact dating of it would not be 19thc it would likely be 100 years earlier at 18thc, maybe it is an older type of the swords that were from Afghanistan, it is also marked, and someone might know the mark.

He's also acknowledged the salawar's scabbard is newer than the weapon and likely a later 'upgrade' replacement.

11th July 2018, 01:52 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	..and finally (Allah be praised! ) Attached Images

12th July 2018, 02:44 PM	#2
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	دران وقتیکه دختر داد با علی سر افرازش when he gave (in marriage) his daughter to Ali honored him. شنیدستم که فخر آل آدم محمد پاشا هر دو عالم I have heard (that is the best I could make out of it) that pride of children of Adam, Muhammad king of both worlds. Attached Images

12th July 2018, 03:27 PM	#3
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	سر افگنده و بر کشیده کلاه در آمد یپایین )از( تخت شاه بهرچه خوش آید بدند آن او نتابند گردن ز فرمان او اشارت کند تا رقیبان تخت بسازند با شاه فیروز بخت With head lowered (ashamed) and hat (crown) removed The king came down from his throne Whatever he (this is someone else) liked they gave to him They would not stray from his orders Gestures so the competitors for the throne Cooperate with the glorious king. These six verse are from a bigger poem I am not sure what, or who is the poet. the other side sounds fragmented there are 5 verses which does not sound right and the only ones that rhyme are verse 3 and 4. I could not make out the ones indicated before, even with the better pictures. Attached Images

13th July 2018, 06:02 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Thanks for all the effort. I'm sure he will be happy with that. the tip of the salawar was a bit corroded I gather, and looks like it was not as well etched on the one side...Looks a bit like it was done with a stencil that didn't quite fit. best regards, Wayne edited: He's just sent me some final pics of the salawar after a bit more cleaning (he's a professional restorer by the way, unlike me.) along with his thanks for a job well and speedily done. I've rotated & cropped them a bit to fit the max size here (that's why some have odd corners ) Not sure if that unclear side is any more intelligible. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 13th July 2018 at 07:14 AM.

13th July 2018, 07:14 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	Just for interest, The owner polished and etched a small area on the talwar, he says it looks more like a small tight birdseye Damascus pattern welding rather than the wootz he's handled before.

13th July 2018, 11:00 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Unless his and mine understanding of what “ Birdseye Damascus” signifies, I would worry: that pattern is frequently seen on modern Indian replicas . I am always leery about intact etched or silvered inscriptions on blades: fighting swords were sharpened and cleaned repeatedly and the chances of the inscription to remain intact were rather slim. I might be wrong, though.

14th July 2018, 09:02 AM	#7
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	The pattern on the hilt of the talwar only is like a random laminate Damascus, not birdseye, birdseye is something that is modern, very seldom did rigid patterns get used on old swords like this and I perhaps should have put random laminate, because its clearly a folded laminate but not necessarily is Damascus, to clarify it's laminated, the blade is an old one without a single doubt and is likely wootz but because of its age and that he is unable to polish it because of the etched area along it he can not etch to show the wootz, but it is there, none of these are modern swords in any way and, blades have been etched since early times and there is no reason to think then not old or modern because they have etched designs on them, I misunderstood what he was saying and that it could well be wootz blade, laminated steel hilt, and that the hilt has silver ring shapes inlaid into it. And with a steel pin through it to keep the blade in, is unlike most indian talwars. My thoughts are that as it may be afghan made, and not as was said captured or traded, if you look at the hilt cross guard section you will see something here that no one yet has noticed, the ball ends of the cross guard are pointing down in a curve towards the blade, unlike Indian Tulwars which all are straight, and if you look at the Pulwar from Afghanistan they to curve down much more, so. I am wondering if this is not a Shamshir and made in Afghanistan,and the whole sword now cleaned certainly looks a lot older than both of the others, in fact dating of it would not be 19thc it would likely be 100 years earlier at 18thc, maybe it is an older type of the swords that were from Afghanistan, it is also marked, and someone might know the mark. He's also acknowledged the salawar's scabbard is newer than the weapon and likely a later 'upgrade' replacement.