Pedang restored + Warangan in Java

A. G. Maisey · 27th June 2018, 10:07 PM

Roland, I admit that it is difficult to judge from photos, but based upon what I can see in your photos I would consider this warangan job to be totally unacceptable, and not only for the rust.

It might look better in the hand, but if I got a warangan job that looks like the job in the photos, it would be sent straight back to the person who did it. Yes, you cannot do this, and neither would I, unless I was no more than a half hour drive from the bloke who had screwed the job.

As to arsenic, is there no mechanism within your country to obtain correct legal authority to use hazardous chemicals, here it is a HAZCHEM certificate that requires a minor technical course to be completed.

Battara · 27th June 2018, 11:50 PM

Ok so this particular piece is not from Bali then. They usually use arsenic in their etching.

If is from Java, then I can see Alan's point.

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2018, 12:02 AM

Actually Jose, the art of blade staining is pretty much dead in Bali. They used to use warangan (realgar) the same as everybody else, but these days they send their blades to Surabaya for staining.

No, its not a Bali pedang.

ariel · 28th June 2018, 02:48 AM

A very naive question:

Since etching/staining is a controlled rusting, couldn’t one instead of a very toxic arsenic with lime juice use good old Nital?

kai · 28th June 2018, 08:16 AM

Hello Ariel,

Quote:

Since etching/staining is a controlled rusting, couldn’t one instead of a very toxic arsenic with lime juice use good old Nital?

Controlled oxidation, not necessarily rusting.

E. g. warangan results in a surface layer of arsenate. Have a close look at the pics!

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 28th June 2018, 10:28 AM

Ariel, I've never used Nital, but I understand it is comprised of nitric acid and alchohol, as such, I would expect it to be a very good etchant, but I would not expect it to stain ferric material blue-black. Arsenic stains ferric material blue-black.

Sajen · 28th June 2018, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Ok so this particular piece is not from Bali then. They usually use arsenic in their etching.

If is from Java, then I can see Alan's point.

We have here in Germany a dealer who offered the service of warangan, he take the blades with to Indonesia and let them stain there. He let them normally stained by Pak Suryono who is not with us anymore, his job was a very good one. Some years ago I used this offer but he let stain my blades on Bali, a very disappointing result!

I send the blades back to him and they get stained again on Java by Pak Suryono. The result was a good one. So far I know used Roland the same service, I don't know what happened to Rolands blade that he get it back with rust but Alans point is obvious.

Regards,
Detlef

ariel · 30th June 2018, 01:27 AM

OK, I am digging myself in deeper and deeper:-)

What will happen if we oxidize ( essentially rust) the iron layers of the pamor with Nital, and then go over it with blueing fluid that makes iron black but doesn't touch bright nickel? Or, if we do not want 3-dimensional topography of the blade, just use blueing fluid?

Having had to read human toxicology for my medical boards ( long ago), I am deathly afraid of arsenic. This stuff is toxic like hell. If one can get good artistic results with innocuous substances, the kris community might save hell of a lot of money by not sending the blades to Indonesia and maintaining clean consciousness by not killing the locals.

Here is Wikipedia:

"If arsenic poisoning occurs over a brief period of time symptoms may include vomiting, abdominal pain, encephalopathy, and watery diarrhea that contains blood. Long-term exposure can result in thickening of the skin, darker skin, abdominal pain, diarrhea, heart disease, numbness, and cancer."

The final result of generous exposure to arsenic is coma and death.

30th June 2018, 01:27 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	OK, I am digging myself in deeper and deeper:-) What will happen if we oxidize ( essentially rust) the iron layers of the pamor with Nital, and then go over it with blueing fluid that makes iron black but doesn't touch bright nickel? Or, if we do not want 3-dimensional topography of the blade, just use blueing fluid? Having had to read human toxicology for my medical boards ( long ago), I am deathly afraid of arsenic. This stuff is toxic like hell. If one can get good artistic results with innocuous substances, the kris community might save hell of a lot of money by not sending the blades to Indonesia and maintaining clean consciousness by not killing the locals. Here is Wikipedia: "If arsenic poisoning occurs over a brief period of time symptoms may include vomiting, abdominal pain, encephalopathy, and watery diarrhea that contains blood. Long-term exposure can result in thickening of the skin, darker skin, abdominal pain, diarrhea, heart disease, numbness, and cancer." The final result of generous exposure to arsenic is coma and death. Last edited by ariel; 30th June 2018 at 01:29 PM.

27th June 2018, 10:07 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Roland, I admit that it is difficult to judge from photos, but based upon what I can see in your photos I would consider this warangan job to be totally unacceptable, and not only for the rust. It might look better in the hand, but if I got a warangan job that looks like the job in the photos, it would be sent straight back to the person who did it. Yes, you cannot do this, and neither would I, unless I was no more than a half hour drive from the bloke who had screwed the job. As to arsenic, is there no mechanism within your country to obtain correct legal authority to use hazardous chemicals, here it is a HAZCHEM certificate that requires a minor technical course to be completed.

27th June 2018, 11:50 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Ok so this particular piece is not from Bali then. They usually use arsenic in their etching. If is from Java, then I can see Alan's point.

28th June 2018, 12:02 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Actually Jose, the art of blade staining is pretty much dead in Bali. They used to use warangan (realgar) the same as everybody else, but these days they send their blades to Surabaya for staining. No, its not a Bali pedang.

28th June 2018, 02:48 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	A very naive question: Since etching/staining is a controlled rusting, couldn’t one instead of a very toxic arsenic with lime juice use good old Nital?

28th June 2018, 10:28 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Ariel, I've never used Nital, but I understand it is comprised of nitric acid and alchohol, as such, I would expect it to be a very good etchant, but I would not expect it to stain ferric material blue-black. Arsenic stains ferric material blue-black.