Ilocano Knives (Santa, Ilocos Sur, Philippines)

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by F. de Luzon

Hello Spunjer,

Thank you for your insights. The whitish metal on the hilt of the dagger in post #6 seems to be of the same material as that in post #8. I haven't seen the dagger (#6) in person because it is still en route to Manila. But based on the photograph, the whitish lines and dots do look like aluminum. The similarities in the hilt and scabbard suggest that these daggers were made by the same craftsman, as said by Ian.

I am certain that the dagger with the soldier's head pommel was manufactured in Santa, Ilocos Sur. If these were made by the same craftsman, then the other one is from the same place. The question is whether or not these daggers are from the era of the Philippine Revolution/Philippine American War (1896-1902). Some would assume that it can't because of the presence of aluminum.

I've seen here and elsewhere the view that Philippine weapons (krisses, bolos, etc) with aluminum fittings are of post World War II manufacture because aluminum was salvaged from downed fighter planes. I do not agree with this broad generalization.

Aluminum (aluminio) was imported to the Philippines since the late nineteenth century. Later, the American Governor General would even set duties on aluminum. Here's a page from the Executive Orders and Proclamations of the Governor General in 1905 setting the duties on aluminum kitchen utensils, etc. See #71 .. aluminio.... (https://quod.lib.umich.edu/p/philame...ge;q1=aluminio).

Therefore, while some weapons were fitted with aluminum after the war, there were others that may have already had them even before. All I am saying is that these daggers cannot be assumed to be post war just because of the presence of aluminum.

Anyway, I'm just sharing my thoughts and I would appreciate any added insights.

Kind regards,

Fernando

good point on aluminum, Fernando! i'm not sure about the knife on post #6; i can only vouch on the knife that's shown on post #8: this particular piece was a part of mine collection a few years ago. few things told me it was a later piece: the leather scabbard seems pretty crisp. the older pieces i have that were from the 1st revolutionary era that came with leather scabbards seem to have shrunk a bit. IMHO unless it was taken care of after all these years, these scabbards tend to shrink big time. another tell tale sign is the handle if it's made out of carabao horn. the horn tend to turn into this hazy, amber type. i'm attaching some examples.
hope that helps.

on the sidenote: when i went to Baler about 4 years ago, i went to the palengke and seen some knives with a similar soldier's head and flower bud handles.
also, one of the stories i've heard on what those soldier's head is suppose to represent is a facsimile of General Douglas MacArthur.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

good point on aluminum, Fernando! i'm not sure about the knife on post #6; i can only vouch on the knife that's shown on post #8: this particular piece was a part of mine collection a few years ago. few things told me it was a later piece: the leather scabbard seems pretty crisp. the older pieces i have that were from the 1st revolutionary era that came with leather scabbards seem to have shrunk a bit. IMHO unless it was taken care of after all these years, these scabbards tend to shrink big time. another tell tale sign is the handle if it's made out of carabao horn. the horn tend to turn into this hazy, amber type. i'm attaching some examples.
hope that helps.

on the sidenote: when i went to Baler about 4 years ago, i went to the palengke and seen some knives with a similar soldier's head and flower bud handles. Also, one of the stories i've heard on what those soldier's head is suppose to represent is a facsimile of General Douglas MacArthur.

Thank you for the information Spunjer! It's very helpful. I'll inspect the fit of the scabbard and the quality of the horn when it arrives. I do not intend to insist that #6 is from the era of the revolution. I just based the assumption on the description of #8 as being from that time. I am open to any possibility and your insights are enlightening. On the origin of #6, it came from a large civil war collection in California. Unfortunately, that's all the information that could be given.

Regarding the side note, attached is a photo I found online. It's part of the collection of a former governor of Ilocos Sur. I think the hat resembles Gen. MacArthur's. Following the times, I suppose? The contemporary examples look very generic.

There's another example I saw but which I was unable to save but it had a dedication that said "from the people of Santa, Ilocos Sur." Right now, all I'm certain of is that the soldiers head pommel has been made in Santa for a long time now.

I hope to visit Baler one of these days. In case I do, I'll try to get information on their knives.

Kind regards,

Fernando

[Battara]

A few things:

1. Thank you Fernando - very helpful.

2. I agree with Ron in that many of these knives were made by non-Ilokanos. In fact, although each group makes various types of knives (especially for different uses) I question what almost looks to me that the Ilokanos made all of these knives on the forum described as Ilokano. Ian and I have wondered about the cross fertilization of aspects of the different groups, Ilokano to Tagalog and visa versa, etc.

3. Ron I think you are on to something regarding horn (especially albino carabao horn) changing look as it ages. Mine seem to. And I will also add that I have a Katipunero scabbard that has shrunk to where I can't get the blade fulling inside. On the other hand, I have another piece of the Katipunero era with a scabbard in near perfect condition without shrinkage. Storage conditions do matter to an extent.

4. It is very likely that aluminum was used more during and after WWII. However, I wonder then if the quality and style of hilt might be an additional and better determination of age rather than just the use of the aluminum alone.

[F. de Luzon]

Originally Posted by Battara

A few things:

2. I agree with Ron in that many of these knives were made by non-Ilokanos. In fact, although each group makes various types of knives (especially for different uses) I question what almost looks to me that the Ilokanos made all of these knives on the forum described as Ilokano. Ian and I have wondered about the cross fertilization of aspects of the different groups, Ilokano to Tagalog and visa versa, etc.

3. Ron I think you are on to something regarding horn (especially albino carabao horn) changing look as it ages. Mine seem to. And I will also add that I have a Katipunero scabbard that has shrunk to where I can't get the blade fulling inside. On the other hand, I have another piece of the Katipunero era with a scabbard in near perfect condition without shrinkage. Storage conditions do matter to an extent.

4. It is very likely that aluminum was used more during and after WWII. However, I wonder then if the quality and style of hilt might be an additional and better determination of age rather than just the use of the aluminum alone.

You're welcome, Battara! I agree with you on all points.