Keris lurus for comment and discussion

Bjorn · 12th June 2018, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In older keris the tang is frequently very worn, eroded and thin, then the mendak will turn freely unless it is held in place by pressure from the hilt.

Thank you for the clarification, Alan.
The above part of the quote is the main principle I had in mind, but you managed to express it far more clearly.

Out of curiosity, do you have an illustration of a keris ring? This is the first time I've heard of such a thing.

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2018, 10:27 PM

No Bjorn, I do not have a keris ring, nor have I seen a picture of one. I believe I saw one once in Solo, but I could neither handle it nor buy it. My memory of it is that it had very slightly raised rim around each edge, this of course created a recessed central band which if it was a keris ring, the top of the gonjo would sit in, and the rim on each side would prevent it from slipping off the ring and biting into the finger.

I think perhaps Gardner may have mentioned keris rings, If not Gardner, one of the writers from that era.

Bjorn · 13th June 2018, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No Bjorn, I do not have a keris ring, nor have I seen a picture of one. I believe I saw one once in Solo, but I could neither handle it nor buy it. My memory of it is that it had very slightly raised rim around each edge, this of course created a recessed central band which if it was a keris ring, the top of the gonjo would sit in, and the rim on each side would prevent it from slipping off the ring and biting into the finger.

I think perhaps Gardner may have mentioned keris rings, If not Gardner, one of the writers from that era.

Interesting stuff, Alan.
It seems these rings are a rarity these days, which makes sense considering they served a very particular, practical function related to using a keris as a weapon. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember the use of keris as weapons was already less frequent during the 19th c. (at least in Jawa). Instead, the focus during this period was already on the social and religious aspects of the keris. Would it then be fair to assume that keris rings had already fallen out of general usage even during this period of time?

Regardless, I assume that many of these rings were eventually molten down for re-use in the creation of other materials.

A. G. Maisey · 14th June 2018, 11:50 PM

Yes Bjorn, I cannot disagree with that which you have written.

GIO · 15th June 2018, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

No Bjorn, I do not have a keris ring, nor have I seen a picture of one. I believe I saw one once in Solo, but I could neither handle it nor buy it. My memory of it is that it had very slightly raised rim around each edge, this of course created a recessed central band which if it was a keris ring, the top of the gonjo would sit in, and the rim on each side would prevent it from slipping off the ring and biting into the finger.

I think perhaps Gardner may have mentioned keris rings, If not Gardner, one of the writers from that era.

Yes, Alan is right, as usual. Gardner dedicated few words to keris rings in his book. He also added a photo where two rings (chinchin melawan) are shown among a few pendongkok.
The pic is rather bad and apparently nothing distinctive appear. They seem common rings.

Bjorn · 16th June 2018, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

Yes, Alan is right, as usual. Gardner dedicated few words to keris rings in his book. He also added a photo where two rings (chinchin melawan) are shown among a few pendongkok.
The pic is rather bad and apparently nothing distinctive appear. They seem common rings.

Thanks for the confirmation, Gio. I'll have a look at Gardner again one of these days.

jagabuwana · 12th June 2018, 11:37 PM

Thanks for elaborating on tangguh some more, I have a better understanding now. I'd read the linked article before but this gave a fuller, elaborated picture. I'm familiar with the Javanese worldview and emphasis placed towards belief, as it is much the same in Sundanese. I'm therefore surprised that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo (alm.) would say that tangguh isn't "real". Was he extracting himself from the practice or shared belief and system, or was he saying that it was supported only by shared belief and understanding and therefore not "real" in the same way reading historical manuscripts is real? I know you mentioned that this is not the place to expand more on tangguh, so perhaps asking more is asking too much.

Regarding Tuban and Tuban blades:

I was under the false impression that all tangguh refered to Kingdom names or eras of reign. With Tuban being a trading port, does this necessarily mean that blades made in Tuban are of inferior craftsmanship and quality than blades made by keraton empus? And were they made and then sold "off the shelf" as opposed to having been commissioned by someone?

A. G. Maisey · 13th June 2018, 06:24 AM

Novan, I used Pak Parman and Pak Pauzan as examples, but you will find this disagreement and variation in understanding right across the spectrum of all people who have heard of or who involve themselves in tangguh.

I think in Pauzan's case it was because although he came from Abangan roots, he migrated into the Santri class and he became a very devout Muslim, by denying the perceived reality of tangguh belief he divorced himself from something he saw as a lower level of belief. Similarly, although everybody else regarded him as an empu, he refused to be known as one and always referred to himself as a keris artist. He understood an empu as somebody who attempted to bring life into an inanimate object, and as a good Muslim he could not accept this, as only God can create life.

In my own case , I have done considerable research on keris development and have come to the conclusion that tangguh as it is understood today is a folk belief system.

We have all heard that the Tangguh Majapahit Keris is a thing of beauty, a major artistic achievement. Well, it just happens that we have images of the Majapahit keris that were created at the height of Majapahit power. The images below are from the bas reliefs on Candi Penataran near Blitar in East Jawa. This was the major Candi of Majapahit.

Then we have tangguhs like Singasari, and Kahuripan, Segaluh and Pajajaran, all way before Mojo.

Consider Pengging, located near where Solo airport is now, a kabupaten governed by an official from Majapahit, that many people take to be Pengging Witaradya, a legendary place dating from 9th-10th century.

The tangguh system does use names for its classifications that can be linked to eras, but those eras also occupied geographic locations. It seems to me to be more likely that tangguh relates to geographic location, or perceived geographic location, rather than historical era. All these tangguh apply to the Modern Keris, the form of the keris that came into existence some time after the 14th century, thus all keris that conform to the various tangguh classifications came into existence some time after the 14th century --- but try telling that to a True Believer, especially one who was never real strong on his high school history to begin with.

But anybody can believe whatever they wish. The whole tangguh system is so screwed up now that it would be next to impossible to sort it out --- and who wants to anyway? Commerce will always triumph.

In respect of Tuban blades.

Tuban blades are not necessarily inferior in terms of physical quality, but in the Javanese value system a trading port has no honour, whereas a kingdom does, and a kingdom that is regarded as an honorable one has more value than a kingdom regarded as having little or no honour. This concept is not at all difficult to come to terms with.

Yes, of course Tuban blades were made simply as items of trade, as in fact were most keris. If a keris is made as a pusaka it will have a chosen dhapur, a chosen pamor, it will be made with the appropriate ceremony and offerings, and it will cost multiples of the cost of a keris made for dress use or as a weapon. Most keris were not made by empus, most were made by pande keris or pande besi, or were a collaboration between a number of people, but a pusaka keris would be made by an empu.

jagabuwana · 13th June 2018, 12:01 PM

That makes sense. I understand the "belief is reality" worldview that you're mentioning, but it's also clearer now what Pak Pauzan alm. meant when he said "tangguh nggak sungguh".

Those reliefs are definitely food for thought, not that it should come to much surprise. Thanks once again for elaborating and taking the time to share your knowledge.

13th June 2018, 06:24 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Novan, I used Pak Parman and Pak Pauzan as examples, but you will find this disagreement and variation in understanding right across the spectrum of all people who have heard of or who involve themselves in tangguh. I think in Pauzan's case it was because although he came from Abangan roots, he migrated into the Santri class and he became a very devout Muslim, by denying the perceived reality of tangguh belief he divorced himself from something he saw as a lower level of belief. Similarly, although everybody else regarded him as an empu, he refused to be known as one and always referred to himself as a keris artist. He understood an empu as somebody who attempted to bring life into an inanimate object, and as a good Muslim he could not accept this, as only God can create life. In my own case , I have done considerable research on keris development and have come to the conclusion that tangguh as it is understood today is a folk belief system. We have all heard that the Tangguh Majapahit Keris is a thing of beauty, a major artistic achievement. Well, it just happens that we have images of the Majapahit keris that were created at the height of Majapahit power. The images below are from the bas reliefs on Candi Penataran near Blitar in East Jawa. This was the major Candi of Majapahit. Then we have tangguhs like Singasari, and Kahuripan, Segaluh and Pajajaran, all way before Mojo. Consider Pengging, located near where Solo airport is now, a kabupaten governed by an official from Majapahit, that many people take to be Pengging Witaradya, a legendary place dating from 9th-10th century. The tangguh system does use names for its classifications that can be linked to eras, but those eras also occupied geographic locations. It seems to me to be more likely that tangguh relates to geographic location, or perceived geographic location, rather than historical era. All these tangguh apply to the Modern Keris, the form of the keris that came into existence some time after the 14th century, thus all keris that conform to the various tangguh classifications came into existence some time after the 14th century --- but try telling that to a True Believer, especially one who was never real strong on his high school history to begin with. But anybody can believe whatever they wish. The whole tangguh system is so screwed up now that it would be next to impossible to sort it out --- and who wants to anyway? Commerce will always triumph. In respect of Tuban blades. Tuban blades are not necessarily inferior in terms of physical quality, but in the Javanese value system a trading port has no honour, whereas a kingdom does, and a kingdom that is regarded as an honorable one has more value than a kingdom regarded as having little or no honour. This concept is not at all difficult to come to terms with. Yes, of course Tuban blades were made simply as items of trade, as in fact were most keris. If a keris is made as a pusaka it will have a chosen dhapur, a chosen pamor, it will be made with the appropriate ceremony and offerings, and it will cost multiples of the cost of a keris made for dress use or as a weapon. Most keris were not made by empus, most were made by pande keris or pande besi, or were a collaboration between a number of people, but a pusaka keris would be made by an empu. Attached Images

12th June 2018, 10:27 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	No Bjorn, I do not have a keris ring, nor have I seen a picture of one. I believe I saw one once in Solo, but I could neither handle it nor buy it. My memory of it is that it had very slightly raised rim around each edge, this of course created a recessed central band which if it was a keris ring, the top of the gonjo would sit in, and the rim on each side would prevent it from slipping off the ring and biting into the finger. I think perhaps Gardner may have mentioned keris rings, If not Gardner, one of the writers from that era.

14th June 2018, 11:50 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Yes Bjorn, I cannot disagree with that which you have written.

12th June 2018, 11:37 PM	#7
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Thanks for elaborating on tangguh some more, I have a better understanding now. I'd read the linked article before but this gave a fuller, elaborated picture. I'm familiar with the Javanese worldview and emphasis placed towards belief, as it is much the same in Sundanese. I'm therefore surprised that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo (alm.) would say that tangguh isn't "real". Was he extracting himself from the practice or shared belief and system, or was he saying that it was supported only by shared belief and understanding and therefore not "real" in the same way reading historical manuscripts is real? I know you mentioned that this is not the place to expand more on tangguh, so perhaps asking more is asking too much. Regarding Tuban and Tuban blades: I was under the false impression that all tangguh refered to Kingdom names or eras of reign. With Tuban being a trading port, does this necessarily mean that blades made in Tuban are of inferior craftsmanship and quality than blades made by keraton empus? And were they made and then sold "off the shelf" as opposed to having been commissioned by someone?

13th June 2018, 12:01 PM	#9
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	That makes sense. I understand the "belief is reality" worldview that you're mentioning, but it's also clearer now what Pak Pauzan alm. meant when he said "tangguh nggak sungguh". Those reliefs are definitely food for thought, not that it should come to much surprise. Thanks once again for elaborating and taking the time to share your knowledge.