Keris lurus for comment and discussion

jagabuwana · 11th June 2018, 11:34 AM

another look at the dodgy mendak

David · 11th June 2018, 12:24 PM

A shame about that poor little mendak. But that is probably the easiest thing to replace on any keris.
Your handle is not particularly modern. It is an ornamental design common in Madura/East Jawa keris Madura is officially part of East Jawa). It seems to have some age and i would not be surprised if it were at least pre-WWII.
When you give your measurement as 45cm is that just the blade or are you including the hilt as well?

jagabuwana · 11th June 2018, 01:01 PM

Thanks for the information David - yes it does appear to be a Madura hulu
Also the length is just the blade, from the tip to the gonjo.

A. G. Maisey · 11th June 2018, 01:17 PM

The blade is old, better than fair, I'm almost certain that it will be Tuban classification (ie, Tangguh).

The hilt is Madura, Pamekesan Tumenggungan.

The Mendak is angkup randu, East Jawa/Madura.

It might be possible with patience and care to straighten the kinks out of the mendak, but if not, a replacement could be obtained.

This is a very nice keris as a first keris, it is virtually the same as the first keris I ever bought, about 64 years ago.

First step should be to clean up the hilt with a toothbrush, when all the dust is out of the carving, use a couple of drops of baby oil and hand rub it in.

Don't be in a rush to clean the blade, give it some oil and think about things for a while.

Bjorn · 11th June 2018, 08:08 PM

Congratulations on your first keris!
There's an incredible amount to learn about the keris, and by extension Indonesian history and society. The hilt you've shown is indeed of a common type, and it won't take you long at all to recognize the Madura style.

The previous comments have already addressed most of your questions.
As to the fit of a mendak, generally I would say it's not always a tight fit, but if it's of normal and even height (i.e. not squashed or otherwise compromised), it will fit snugly between the gonjo and ukiran. Often you'd still be able to rotate it, but the fit wouldn't be a loose one where the mendak will rotate by itself.

A. G. Maisey · 11th June 2018, 11:34 PM

Bjorn, sometimes , in fact often, the mendak is not a snug fit on the tang of a keris.

In older keris the tang is frequently very worn, eroded and thin, then the mendak will turn freely unless it is held in place by pressure from the hilt. In this situation, the best thing to do is to wind the thread that holds the hilt in place, all the way down the tang so that it prevents the mendak from moving back and forth. In the old days when hilts were held in place with jabung, the mendak was effectively held with jabung.

The thing is this, there is little standardisation in the case of mendak/tang/hilt. Often a Javanese planar hilt will have the bottom of the hilt recessed to accept a mendak, but just as often you need to try 20 or more mendak before you get an ideal fit. Sometimes a tang on a keris will be too thick for the general run of mendak, then you need to ream the mendak out --- if its just a couple of thou difference --- or get a mendak made specially, and special size mendak are not at all cheap or fast and easy to get.

The function of the mendak is not only to form a transition from hilt to blade, but also to act as a "shock absorber" if the blade strikes bone when it is used.

The way in which most keris are intended to be held means that the index finger is anchored against the top of the gonjo, if the blade tip jams up against bone, or anything hard, that will bring the blade to a jarring stop, and unless the user is wearing a keris ring --- something that seems not to have been usual for a long time, at least in Jawa --- the top of the gonjo will very likely damage the user's index finger.

Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak.

But of course, in a dress keris everything should be as neat as possible.

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2018, 12:02 AM

tangguh > menangguh > penangguh : noun > action > doer

Old Tuban blades were often quite a bit more substantial than other Javanese blades.

The cross section is "like young bambu", ie, more or less ovoid, thick, no ada-ada.

The gonjo is short and thick, buntut urang is short, no waist between gendok and buntut urang, it is not ngebit rontal, but it is also not quite nguceng mati, it is pretty straight and generally ugly, the sirah cecak is short and a bit rounded. I cannot clearly see the profile of the sirah cecak from above, but what I can see seems to indicate that the sirah cecak conforms, and the rest of the gonjo does conform.

Gandhik is low, blumbangan is not deep.

The thing with tangguh is this Novan:- get a textbook example and photos that show what needs to be seen and many different tangguh you can can bet on --- maybe not absolutely 100%, but certainly 99% or better.

The problem with tangguh in the present day is that virtually nobody understands the how, where and why of it, thus it has become a commercial tool used to assist sales, and every keris ever made is supposed to be able to have a tangguh. Sorry baby, doesn't work like that. But try telling that to the half educated dipsticks that want to spout tangguh this that and the other all over the place. Best to say nothing.

Your keris I'd put my shirt on.

EDIT

It has been pointed out to me that I should mention that the word "tangguh" is both a part of Javanese language and Indonesian language, and that it has a number of meanings and applications.

Accordingly I have deleted some of my original text in the interests of clarity. What I have written about the word "tangguh" is adequate for the purposes of keris discussion

Rick · 12th June 2018, 01:00 AM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak./QUOTE]

Judging from the above quote Novan, your mendak may have seen such stresses.

Bjorn · 12th June 2018, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In older keris the tang is frequently very worn, eroded and thin, then the mendak will turn freely unless it is held in place by pressure from the hilt.

Thank you for the clarification, Alan.
The above part of the quote is the main principle I had in mind, but you managed to express it far more clearly.

Out of curiosity, do you have an illustration of a keris ring? This is the first time I've heard of such a thing.

jagabuwana · 11th June 2018, 11:20 PM

Thank you Bjorn! All noted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The blade is old, better than fair, I'm almost certain that it will be Tuban classification (ie, Tangguh).

The hilt is Madura, Pamekesan Tumenggungan.

The Mendak is angkup randu, East Jawa/Madura.

It might be possible with patience and care to straighten the kinks out of the mendak, but if not, a replacement could be obtained.

This is a very nice keris as a first keris, it is virtually the same as the first keris I ever bought, about 64 years ago.

First step should be to clean up the hilt with a toothbrush, when all the dust is out of the carving, use a couple of drops of baby oil and hand rub it in.

Don't be in a rush to clean the blade, give it some oil and think about things for a while.

Thanks for the appraisal, Alan. I’m definitely pleased with it. I’ll be heeding your advice and not hurry to clean it - I think that is wise. I’ve oiled it and will take time to familiarise with it and vice versa. In absence of a sheath, I’ve loosely wrapped it in a square batik cloth. I became fixated on the wilah though, and forgot to clean the ukiran. I'll do so after work.

In previous posts of yours, I’ve noted that giving (unsure of the appropriate verb here) tangguh is difficult if not impossible to do using pictures alone. In this instance however you are almost certain that it would be tangguh Tuban (and I do understand that tangguh is the justifiable opinion of the knowledgeable appraiser). I'd be interested to know - what gives you such a strong indication in this case?

11th June 2018, 11:34 AM	#1
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	another look at the dodgy mendak Attached Images

12th June 2018, 12:02 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	tangguh > menangguh > penangguh : noun > action > doer Old Tuban blades were often quite a bit more substantial than other Javanese blades. The cross section is "like young bambu", ie, more or less ovoid, thick, no ada-ada. The gonjo is short and thick, buntut urang is short, no waist between gendok and buntut urang, it is not ngebit rontal, but it is also not quite nguceng mati, it is pretty straight and generally ugly, the sirah cecak is short and a bit rounded. I cannot clearly see the profile of the sirah cecak from above, but what I can see seems to indicate that the sirah cecak conforms, and the rest of the gonjo does conform. Gandhik is low, blumbangan is not deep. The thing with tangguh is this Novan:- get a textbook example and photos that show what needs to be seen and many different tangguh you can can bet on --- maybe not absolutely 100%, but certainly 99% or better. The problem with tangguh in the present day is that virtually nobody understands the how, where and why of it, thus it has become a commercial tool used to assist sales, and every keris ever made is supposed to be able to have a tangguh. Sorry baby, doesn't work like that. But try telling that to the half educated dipsticks that want to spout tangguh this that and the other all over the place. Best to say nothing. Your keris I'd put my shirt on. EDIT It has been pointed out to me that I should mention that the word "tangguh" is both a part of Javanese language and Indonesian language, and that it has a number of meanings and applications. Accordingly I have deleted some of my original text in the interests of clarity. What I have written about the word "tangguh" is adequate for the purposes of keris discussion Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 12th June 2018 at 12:26 AM.

11th June 2018, 12:24 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	A shame about that poor little mendak. But that is probably the easiest thing to replace on any keris. Your handle is not particularly modern. It is an ornamental design common in Madura/East Jawa keris Madura is officially part of East Jawa). It seems to have some age and i would not be surprised if it were at least pre-WWII. When you give your measurement as 45cm is that just the blade or are you including the hilt as well?

11th June 2018, 01:01 PM	#3
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	Thanks for the information David - yes it does appear to be a Madura hulu Also the length is just the blade, from the tip to the gonjo.

11th June 2018, 01:17 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The blade is old, better than fair, I'm almost certain that it will be Tuban classification (ie, Tangguh). The hilt is Madura, Pamekesan Tumenggungan. The Mendak is angkup randu, East Jawa/Madura. It might be possible with patience and care to straighten the kinks out of the mendak, but if not, a replacement could be obtained. This is a very nice keris as a first keris, it is virtually the same as the first keris I ever bought, about 64 years ago. First step should be to clean up the hilt with a toothbrush, when all the dust is out of the carving, use a couple of drops of baby oil and hand rub it in. Don't be in a rush to clean the blade, give it some oil and think about things for a while.

11th June 2018, 08:08 PM	#5
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Congratulations on your first keris! There's an incredible amount to learn about the keris, and by extension Indonesian history and society. The hilt you've shown is indeed of a common type, and it won't take you long at all to recognize the Madura style. The previous comments have already addressed most of your questions. As to the fit of a mendak, generally I would say it's not always a tight fit, but if it's of normal and even height (i.e. not squashed or otherwise compromised), it will fit snugly between the gonjo and ukiran. Often you'd still be able to rotate it, but the fit wouldn't be a loose one where the mendak will rotate by itself.

11th June 2018, 11:34 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Bjorn, sometimes , in fact often, the mendak is not a snug fit on the tang of a keris. In older keris the tang is frequently very worn, eroded and thin, then the mendak will turn freely unless it is held in place by pressure from the hilt. In this situation, the best thing to do is to wind the thread that holds the hilt in place, all the way down the tang so that it prevents the mendak from moving back and forth. In the old days when hilts were held in place with jabung, the mendak was effectively held with jabung. The thing is this, there is little standardisation in the case of mendak/tang/hilt. Often a Javanese planar hilt will have the bottom of the hilt recessed to accept a mendak, but just as often you need to try 20 or more mendak before you get an ideal fit. Sometimes a tang on a keris will be too thick for the general run of mendak, then you need to ream the mendak out --- if its just a couple of thou difference --- or get a mendak made specially, and special size mendak are not at all cheap or fast and easy to get. The function of the mendak is not only to form a transition from hilt to blade, but also to act as a "shock absorber" if the blade strikes bone when it is used. The way in which most keris are intended to be held means that the index finger is anchored against the top of the gonjo, if the blade tip jams up against bone, or anything hard, that will bring the blade to a jarring stop, and unless the user is wearing a keris ring --- something that seems not to have been usual for a long time, at least in Jawa --- the top of the gonjo will very likely damage the user's index finger. Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak. But of course, in a dress keris everything should be as neat as possible.

12th June 2018, 01:00 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]Thus the mendak, rather than the metuk:- the mendak collapses and absorbs some of the shock. It does not need to be a firm, neat fit, it only needs to be in place and collapsible. The angkup randu style that is found on most old Madura and East Jawa keris is perhaps the most effect "shock absorber" of any mendak./QUOTE] Judging from the above quote Novan, your mendak may have seen such stresses.