"Is it really a Cockatoo?"

Battara · 10th May 2018, 12:56 AM

Although I may not completely agree with Ron's thesis, I will have to say that it is a possibility. I completely agree that the kakatua pommel for junggayan pommels is incorrect and that it is more likely a sarimanok.

I also agree with the Galura idea, especially since it was an old Hindu (12 century) import (Garuda) from India through Indonesia and Indian travelers. In fact, there is even a Moro version of the Indian Ramayana.

On the other hand, Cato probably had different sources for his information that what we have now. I have been informed that Cato might now regret not having the other sources of information and thus recognizes that some modifications to his book are in order. What we have here is not a repudiation of Cato, but modifications to his work, which happens to all scholarly and scientific endeavors with the passing of time.

Rick · 10th May 2018, 02:42 AM

Does the Cockatoo hold any notable place in the folklore of the Moro societies?

Battara · 10th May 2018, 04:10 AM

Of the cockatoo I am not sure. But I do know that the sarimanok (a type of mythical stylized rooster) is important to the Moro world.

Note also that the ferocity of cock/rooster fighting is not lost on Moro culture and is a great source for gambling.

Oliver Pinchot · 10th May 2018, 04:24 AM

I have a great fondness for the Moro aesthetic, however I am not a specialist.
Therefore, I can state objectively that Ron has taken a thoroughly valid academic approach; he made a straightforward thesis, and supported it well.

I met Bob Cato years ago. I believe he was an educator at that time; I think he would respect Ron's research here.

Ian · 10th May 2018, 06:19 AM

Ron,

I am not trying to disparage the ideas you propose or suggest that they are without merit. I apologize if I gave you that impression. Rather I'm trying to understand the basis for your thoughts and how they account for certain facts as we know them.

After 50+ years of reviewing theses, articles submitted for publication, and grant applications, I'm reading your ideas in a similar manner: What are you proposing? What are your sources of new and old information? What data do you have? How will you test your ideas? One does not have to be a trained academic to use the tools of research. Robert Elgood's works are a good model to follow.

The contributions of Robert Cato to the literature on Moro swords are not limited to his book. He has four publications dating from 1991 to 1996, and these are listed in TD Rogers, An Annotated Bibliography of Indonesian, Filipino & Malay Edged Weapons, Zwartenkot Art Books: Lieden, 2015 (citation numbers 599–602).

Cato R. The Moros and their swords. Inside Kung-Fu 16(12): 52–55, 82 (1989).
Cato R. Islamic swords of the Southern Philippines. Arts of Asia 21(1): 104–123, 1991.
Cato R. Moro swords, battle blades of a people. Blade, December 1993: 86–87.
Cato R. Moro Swords. Graham Brash: Singapore, 1996.

I have copies of his book and of the Arts of Asia article, but have not read the other two. I believe at least one of these (Arts of Asia) is a peer reviewed publication, and I suspect that there were varying degrees of editorial review for his other writings on this subject--it would be unusual for an editor of a reputable publication not to perform some type of review. So Mr Cato's work has probably been subjected to review by people familiar with the topic and has met with their approval. David's comment that anyone can write a book is true if we are talking about small printings of self-published works funded by the author. Getting someone else to publish your work with large numbers of colored pictures, however, is not something everyone can do.

Because of the review and scrutiny frequently paid to published articles, they carry more weight than, say, blogs or other opinion pieces (such as EEWRS comments) that are posted online. Generally, blogs and opinions are not supported by references or objective data, whereas well reviewed articles will include these and other features that add credibility to the author's thinking.

As I see it, Mr Cato presently has the high ground in his descriptions of Moro weapons. To refute things he has said means being more thorough and accurate. For example, I don't think Cato cited all of his local sources of information. Some may have requested anonymity, but that is something that should have been stated because unattributed statements can be worth very little (as they cannot be verified). A better study would cite key informants and indicate their expertise.

Ron, I think you have the germ of a good idea. In offering comments about what you have said, I'm not trying to win a debate and I don't necessarily disagree with your idea. I am trying to help you convince me that you are right.

Ian

Ian · 10th May 2018, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Does the Cockatoo hold any notable place in the folklore of the Moro societies?

Rick,

Alan Maisey commented earlier that the cockatoo had a strong symbolic meaning in the Indonesian Archipelago and Malaysia, but he did not know about the significance in Moroland.

Ian.

kai · 10th May 2018, 11:54 AM

Peer review is a straw man - physics is doing fine with much of its academic publishing being done without traditional prior peer review for decades already. And in just about any academic discipline you'll be able to find deplorable "scholarship" having been published after "approval" via academic peer review. And that is before the ugly rise of predatory "academic" journals with peer review of very questionable quality during the last decade or so...

Review done by a commercial non-academic publisher is bound to be quite another kettle of fish, too.

I thank Bob Cato for his efforts and sacrifice in getting his book published. Apparently he was a very dedicated collector and, with publishing his ideas, did more for promoting Moro craftsmanship than most of us. However, I fail to see his book as an academic endeavour: Hardly any sources are given except a few examples shown in pictures (usually without any provenance, discussion, etc.) and limited literature citations; pretty much the data base is just missing. Obviously, the earlier journal articles were leading up to the book - apart from a few pics, there's hardly any additional data.

He put out his ideas and these hypotheses can be falsified/modified by additional data and ongoing discussions. I believe the contributions on this forum are certainly very valuable and can be considered being on par with Cato's early attempt. Fair game IMHO...

Regards,
Kai

David · 10th May 2018, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Peer review is a straw man - physics is doing fine with much of its academic publishing being done without traditional prior peer review for decades already. And in just about any academic discipline you'll be able to find deplorable "scholarship" having been published after "approval" via academic peer review. And that is before the ugly rise of predatory "academic" journals with peer review of very questionable quality during the last decade or so...

Review done by a commercial non-academic publisher is bound to be quite another kettle of fish, too.

I thank Bob Cato for his efforts and sacrifice in getting his book published. Apparently he was a very dedicated collector and, with publishing his ideas, did more for promoting Moro craftsmanship than most of us. However, I fail to see his book as an academic endeavour: Hardly any sources are given except a few examples shown in pictures (usually without any provenance, discussion, etc.) and limited literature citations; pretty much the data base is just missing. Obviously, the earlier journal articles were leading up to the book - apart from a few pics, there's hardly any additional data.

He put out his ideas and these hypotheses can be falsified/modified by additional data and ongoing discussions. I believe the contributions on this forum are certainly very valuable and can be considered being on par with Cato's early attempt. Fair game IMHO...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for confirming what i had expected. All my books are boxed already for an impending move so i cannot access my copy of Moro Sword at the moment.
Again, i have no particular bone to pick with Cato and do not feel fully qualified to confirm or deny any theory he might have presented in his book. However, i strongly disagree that Cato carries more weight simply because he is the only book reference that has been published on the matter, especially when, if we look closely, he fails to give us solid sources and references for his own work. This doesn't give him the "high ground", it merely affords him the only ground...so far.
Ian, i am glad to hear that is was not your intention to shut down this discussion, but when you write things like "Some people may have knowledge that is different, but until it is put out there for discussion and the basis of it checked out, then there is nothing else to discuss" i hope you can see how some might get that impression. What i have found over the many years i have been trying to understand these weapons (particularly Indonesian keris) is that a great deal of valuable and important research and breakthroughs in understanding happen right here on these forums. The vast majority of published references on the keris are misleading at best and utter wrong at worst. They hold no particular "high ground" simply by virtue of them finding a publisher. There has been less written on Moro weaponry and i am not able to say when and when not Cato may be correct or incorrect. But i can't assume he is right simply because he wrote it down. While there may in fact be a more scholarly and academic approach to other forms of arms that have been studied in far greater detail such as European and India swords i am afraid we are at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes the SEA. This doesn't mean that we should not use similar tried and true methods for our research and theory building, but i don't see why we need fully realized and completely supported evidence just to question theories by Cato that are not well sources and referenced themselves.

Rick · 10th May 2018, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Rick,

Alan Maisey commented earlier that the cockatoo had a strong symbolic meaning in the Indonesian Archipelago and Malaysia, but he did not know about the significance in Moroland.

Ian.

Well, that's what I was wondering.
If it had no significance in Moroland then we might be able to discount it as an influence with a fairly clear conscience.

David · 10th May 2018, 07:38 PM

Here is some information on birds (and serpents...as Alan suggested earlier these tend to operate together in many mythologies). There is no mention of kakatau in these descriptions, though some birds are mentioned by their given name rather than species. According to other sources i have read Magaul (Manaul), one of the most important birds to Moro mythology, was supposedly a Sarimanok.
https://www.aswangproject.com/role-b...ine-mythology/

David · 10th May 2018, 07:45 PM

The Ardana could be another candidate.
http://www.ancientpages.com/2017/01/...f-philippines/

David · 10th May 2018, 07:55 PM

Amihan seems to be related to the Manaul myth, an ancient king who was transformed into a bird.
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Amihan_(mythology)

10th May 2018, 06:19 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,360	Ron, I am not trying to disparage the ideas you propose or suggest that they are without merit. I apologize if I gave you that impression. Rather I'm trying to understand the basis for your thoughts and how they account for certain facts as we know them. After 50+ years of reviewing theses, articles submitted for publication, and grant applications, I'm reading your ideas in a similar manner: What are you proposing? What are your sources of new and old information? What data do you have? How will you test your ideas? One does not have to be a trained academic to use the tools of research. Robert Elgood's works are a good model to follow. The contributions of Robert Cato to the literature on Moro swords are not limited to his book. He has four publications dating from 1991 to 1996, and these are listed in TD Rogers, An Annotated Bibliography of Indonesian, Filipino & Malay Edged Weapons, Zwartenkot Art Books: Lieden, 2015 (citation numbers 599–602). Cato R. The Moros and their swords. Inside Kung-Fu 16(12): 52–55, 82 (1989). Cato R. Islamic swords of the Southern Philippines. Arts of Asia 21(1): 104–123, 1991. Cato R. Moro swords, battle blades of a people. Blade, December 1993: 86–87. Cato R. Moro Swords. Graham Brash: Singapore, 1996. I have copies of his book and of the Arts of Asia article, but have not read the other two. I believe at least one of these (Arts of Asia) is a peer reviewed publication, and I suspect that there were varying degrees of editorial review for his other writings on this subject--it would be unusual for an editor of a reputable publication not to perform some type of review. So Mr Cato's work has probably been subjected to review by people familiar with the topic and has met with their approval. David's comment that anyone can write a book is true if we are talking about small printings of self-published works funded by the author. Getting someone else to publish your work with large numbers of colored pictures, however, is not something everyone can do. Because of the review and scrutiny frequently paid to published articles, they carry more weight than, say, blogs or other opinion pieces (such as EEWRS comments) that are posted online. Generally, blogs and opinions are not supported by references or objective data, whereas well reviewed articles will include these and other features that add credibility to the author's thinking. As I see it, Mr Cato presently has the high ground in his descriptions of Moro weapons. To refute things he has said means being more thorough and accurate. For example, I don't think Cato cited all of his local sources of information. Some may have requested anonymity, but that is something that should have been stated because unattributed statements can be worth very little (as they cannot be verified). A better study would cite key informants and indicate their expertise. Ron, I think you have the germ of a good idea. In offering comments about what you have said, I'm not trying to win a debate and I don't necessarily disagree with your idea. I am trying to help you convince me that you are right. Ian

10th May 2018, 12:56 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Although I may not completely agree with Ron's thesis, I will have to say that it is a possibility. I completely agree that the kakatua pommel for junggayan pommels is incorrect and that it is more likely a sarimanok. I also agree with the Galura idea, especially since it was an old Hindu (12 century) import (Garuda) from India through Indonesia and Indian travelers. In fact, there is even a Moro version of the Indian Ramayana. On the other hand, Cato probably had different sources for his information that what we have now. I have been informed that Cato might now regret not having the other sources of information and thus recognizes that some modifications to his book are in order. What we have here is not a repudiation of Cato, but modifications to his work, which happens to all scholarly and scientific endeavors with the passing of time.

10th May 2018, 02:42 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Does the Cockatoo hold any notable place in the folklore of the Moro societies?

10th May 2018, 04:10 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,270	Of the cockatoo I am not sure. But I do know that the sarimanok (a type of mythical stylized rooster) is important to the Moro world. Note also that the ferocity of cock/rooster fighting is not lost on Moro culture and is a great source for gambling.

10th May 2018, 04:24 AM	#4
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 461	I have a great fondness for the Moro aesthetic, however I am not a specialist. Therefore, I can state objectively that Ron has taken a thoroughly valid academic approach; he made a straightforward thesis, and supported it well. I met Bob Cato years ago. I believe he was an educator at that time; I think he would respect Ron's research here.

10th May 2018, 11:54 AM	#7
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Peer review is a straw man - physics is doing fine with much of its academic publishing being done without traditional prior peer review for decades already. And in just about any academic discipline you'll be able to find deplorable "scholarship" having been published after "approval" via academic peer review. And that is before the ugly rise of predatory "academic" journals with peer review of very questionable quality during the last decade or so... Review done by a commercial non-academic publisher is bound to be quite another kettle of fish, too. I thank Bob Cato for his efforts and sacrifice in getting his book published. Apparently he was a very dedicated collector and, with publishing his ideas, did more for promoting Moro craftsmanship than most of us. However, I fail to see his book as an academic endeavour: Hardly any sources are given except a few examples shown in pictures (usually without any provenance, discussion, etc.) and limited literature citations; pretty much the data base is just missing. Obviously, the earlier journal articles were leading up to the book - apart from a few pics, there's hardly any additional data. He put out his ideas and these hypotheses can be falsified/modified by additional data and ongoing discussions. I believe the contributions on this forum are certainly very valuable and can be considered being on par with Cato's early attempt. Fair game IMHO... Regards, Kai

10th May 2018, 07:38 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Here is some information on birds (and serpents...as Alan suggested earlier these tend to operate together in many mythologies). There is no mention of kakatau in these descriptions, though some birds are mentioned by their given name rather than species. According to other sources i have read Magaul (Manaul), one of the most important birds to Moro mythology, was supposedly a Sarimanok. https://www.aswangproject.com/role-b...ine-mythology/

10th May 2018, 07:45 PM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	The Ardana could be another candidate. http://www.ancientpages.com/2017/01/...f-philippines/

10th May 2018, 07:55 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,209	Amihan seems to be related to the Manaul myth, an ancient king who was transformed into a bird. http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Amihan_(mythology)