Maguindanao twistcore Kris.

Gustav · 11th April 2018, 08:12 AM

Thank you Lee, Kai and PBH.

Until now I have noticed here 3 twistcore Kris with 4 bars running all the way through:

two older style Sulu with dense twists:

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23692

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=moro+kris

and Dave's Sutton Hoo Kris:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...twistcore+kris

It's absolutely common for twistcores to have additional bars at the base of blade.

No lottery Kai. Just saw some blades I liked (after a longer time) and luckily was able to acquire them.

No sheath, you can't have it all. Would be difficult for it to be an early 20th cent. piece, as by 1898 it already was in Europe.

No restoration, just cleaned it thoroughly. It had a protective coating and minimal rust in usual places.

Ian · 11th April 2018, 09:11 AM

An outstanding example of a Mindanao battle kris--the simple hilt indicates it was for use rather than show. A high datu quality piece in my opinion, perhaps for a panglima. The style suggests late 19th C. with excellent preservation.

Congrats Gustav on finding such a high quality piece. Information about its provenance would be very helpful. You may be able to identify a particular owner, which would add greatly to its value.

Ian.

CharlesS · 11th April 2018, 03:59 PM

Congrats on one of the finest twistcores I have seen!

I believe it certainly pre-20th century.

kino · 11th April 2018, 06:35 PM

The sellers poor photos indicated a twist core blade. But I wasn't aware that it would be such a beauty.

I'm thinking that the hilt had been replaced.

Congrats.

Sajen · 11th April 2018, 10:36 PM

Beautiful blade!

Spunjer · 12th April 2018, 03:25 AM

congratulations on acquiring this particular kris! i've been trying to talk to the seller into selling it to me but he/she would not ship it overseas.
i'm mesmerized with the paneling on this particular piece. very beautiful!!!

Gustav · 12th April 2018, 11:31 AM

Ian, Charles, Albert, Detlef, Ron - thank you!

Albert - before I had it in my hands I also thought of hilt being a replacement.
Possibly it still is, but the "lamella" of Asang-Asang fits the bend of its head rather well, and the rattan winding (which surely looks like a temporarily solution) seems to be done in Philippines. So at least - if replacement, then an old one.

Does somebody of you have seen such an ending of middle panel on a Kris before?

F. de Luzon · 12th April 2018, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Would be difficult for it to be an early 20th cent. piece, as by 1898 it already was in Europe.

Very impressive! I'm curious about the history of this kris. Can you please share its provenance?

Kind regards,

Fernando

Gustav · 12th April 2018, 07:42 PM

Thank you, Fernando.

With some bigger certainty it is possible to say it came to Spain in (or before) 1898.

With some less certainty - the person who brought it is (or could be) Don Enrique Garcia Dacal. He was born in 1838, 1876 - 1878 Lieutenant Colonel of Infantery in Philippines, likely served there already before that. Left Philippines in 1885. Later (already since 1890) he was the last Military Governor of Abra district in Luzon.

F. de Luzon · 20th April 2018, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Thank you, Fernando.

With some bigger certainty it is possible to say it came to Spain in (or before) 1898.

With some less certainty - the person who brought it is (or could be) Don Enrique Garcia Dacal. He was born in 1838, 1876 - 1878 Lieutenant Colonel of Infantery in Philippines, likely served there already before that. Left Philippines in 1885. Later (already since 1890) he was the last Military Governor of Abra district in Luzon.

Thanks for the information Gustav! There's a view that the length of a Moro kris is an indicator of the time when it was made. At least, your example proves that Moro krises +/- 60 cm long (24 inches) were already being made by the turn of the 20th century.

Gustav · 20th April 2018, 01:42 AM

yes, for Kris from Mindanao it's not unusual already at the time.

Ian · 15th August 2024, 08:27 PM

I'm bringing this one back up because of my recent interests in dating Moro kris and distinguishing Moro from non-Moro work. The original post by Gustav shows a beautiful sword. Much comment was made about the excellent forging of the blade and its twist core central areas. Less attention was given to the cold work on this blade, which I think is of a very high standard.

Gustav noted two unusual features of this blade.

The tikel alis
The projection of the central twist core panel almost to the blade tip, ending in a pointed rather than a rounded curved manner

These are both unusual features for a Moro kris. To these uncommon findings, I would add three more.

The squared-off ends of the sogokan
The closure of the arrowhead area and formation of an acute point
The projection of the curved upper edge and greneng onto the gangya which has been hollowed out to the same curve as the adjacent blade (I'm unsure how this feature would be named)—this finding was described in another recent thread here.

It could be said that these are stylistic variations adopted by a particular craftsman. However, put together, I think they indicate a non-Moro blade. The treatment of the gangya (grooved area adjacent to greneng) is seen fairly commonly on Malay blades from the (late) 19th C and later, for example, as are the squared off sogokan. I have not seen these features on other Moro blades, but do see it on Malay kris. Similarly, the long, central, twist-core panel is quite common on Malay sundang but not seen on Moro versions. Lastly, the arrow head area just doesn't look quite right for Moro work.

My conclusion is that this beautiful blade has more Malay features than Moro features.

And then there is the plain old hilt atop this high quality blade. The pommel seems much older than the blade, judging from the age cracks, and the minimal kakatua pommel (without a crest or side panel) is an old style that likely predates 1800. The rattan wrap also seems mundane for this blade. Perhaps this is a pusaka hilt of significance to the owner. The hilt style is consistent with either Moro or Malay origin. We don't have a scabbard, which would have provided more information about the style of dress.

I think this is probably a Malay blade that ended up in the Philippines (maybe a custom order?), something that seems to have happened fairly commonly in the 19th C.

RobT · 16th August 2024, 11:56 PM

CharlesS,

You consider the blade to be pre 20th century. The baca baca is the one piece form which I have always thought first appeared at the very end of the 19th century and continued on into the 20th century. I have asked on this forum for confirmation of my assumption but I don’t believe I have ever gotten an answer so I would be very interested your take (and other forum members opinions) on when the one piece baca baca appeared. (Taking into account of course that the baca baca currently on the blade may not have been the original.)

Sincerely,
RobT

12th April 2018, 11:31 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Ian, Charles, Albert, Detlef, Ron - thank you! Albert - before I had it in my hands I also thought of hilt being a replacement. Possibly it still is, but the "lamella" of Asang-Asang fits the bend of its head rather well, and the rattan winding (which surely looks like a temporarily solution) seems to be done in Philippines. So at least - if replacement, then an old one. Does somebody of you have seen such an ending of middle panel on a Kris before? Attached Images

15th August 2024, 08:27 PM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	I'm bringing this one back up because of my recent interests in dating Moro kris and distinguishing Moro from non-Moro work. The original post by Gustav shows a beautiful sword. Much comment was made about the excellent forging of the blade and its twist core central areas. Less attention was given to the cold work on this blade, which I think is of a very high standard. Gustav noted two unusual features of this blade. The tikel alis The projection of the central twist core panel almost to the blade tip, ending in a pointed rather than a rounded curved manner These are both unusual features for a Moro kris. To these uncommon findings, I would add three more. The squared-off ends of the sogokan The closure of the arrowhead area and formation of an acute point The projection of the curved upper edge and greneng onto the gangya which has been hollowed out to the same curve as the adjacent blade (I'm unsure how this feature would be named)—this finding was described in another recent thread here. It could be said that these are stylistic variations adopted by a particular craftsman. However, put together, I think they indicate a non-Moro blade. The treatment of the gangya (grooved area adjacent to greneng) is seen fairly commonly on Malay blades from the (late) 19th C and later, for example, as are the squared off sogokan. I have not seen these features on other Moro blades, but do see it on Malay kris. Similarly, the long, central, twist-core panel is quite common on Malay sundang but not seen on Moro versions. Lastly, the arrow head area just doesn't look quite right for Moro work. My conclusion is that this beautiful blade has more Malay features than Moro features. And then there is the plain old hilt atop this high quality blade. The pommel seems much older than the blade, judging from the age cracks, and the minimal kakatua pommel (without a crest or side panel) is an old style that likely predates 1800. The rattan wrap also seems mundane for this blade. Perhaps this is a pusaka hilt of significance to the owner. The hilt style is consistent with either Moro or Malay origin. We don't have a scabbard, which would have provided more information about the style of dress. I think this is probably a Malay blade that ended up in the Philippines (maybe a custom order?), something that seems to have happened fairly commonly in the 19th C. Last edited by Ian; 18th August 2024 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Edited some text for clarity

16th August 2024, 11:56 PM	#13
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 548	Baca Baca Question CharlesS, You consider the blade to be pre 20th century. The baca baca is the one piece form which I have always thought first appeared at the very end of the 19th century and continued on into the 20th century. I have asked on this forum for confirmation of my assumption but I don’t believe I have ever gotten an answer so I would be very interested your take (and other forum members opinions) on when the one piece baca baca appeared. (Taking into account of course that the baca baca currently on the blade may not have been the original.) Sincerely, RobT

11th April 2018, 08:12 AM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Thank you Lee, Kai and PBH. Until now I have noticed here 3 twistcore Kris with 4 bars running all the way through: two older style Sulu with dense twists: www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23692 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=moro+kris and Dave's Sutton Hoo Kris: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...twistcore+kris It's absolutely common for twistcores to have additional bars at the base of blade. No lottery Kai. Just saw some blades I liked (after a longer time) and luckily was able to acquire them. No sheath, you can't have it all. Would be difficult for it to be an early 20th cent. piece, as by 1898 it already was in Europe. No restoration, just cleaned it thoroughly. It had a protective coating and minimal rust in usual places.

11th April 2018, 09:11 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	An outstanding example of a Mindanao battle kris--the simple hilt indicates it was for use rather than show. A high datu quality piece in my opinion, perhaps for a panglima. The style suggests late 19th C. with excellent preservation. Congrats Gustav on finding such a high quality piece. Information about its provenance would be very helpful. You may be able to identify a particular owner, which would add greatly to its value. Ian.

11th April 2018, 03:59 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Congrats on one of the finest twistcores I have seen! I believe it certainly pre-20th century.

11th April 2018, 06:35 PM	#4
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,018	The sellers poor photos indicated a twist core blade. But I wasn't aware that it would be such a beauty. I'm thinking that the hilt had been replaced. Congrats.

11th April 2018, 10:36 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Beautiful blade!

12th April 2018, 03:25 AM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	congratulations on acquiring this particular kris! i've been trying to talk to the seller into selling it to me but he/she would not ship it overseas. i'm mesmerized with the paneling on this particular piece. very beautiful!!!

12th April 2018, 07:42 PM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Thank you, Fernando. With some bigger certainty it is possible to say it came to Spain in (or before) 1898. With some less certainty - the person who brought it is (or could be) Don Enrique Garcia Dacal. He was born in 1838, 1876 - 1878 Lieutenant Colonel of Infantery in Philippines, likely served there already before that. Left Philippines in 1885. Later (already since 1890) he was the last Military Governor of Abra district in Luzon.

20th April 2018, 01:42 AM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	yes, for Kris from Mindanao it's not unusual already at the time.