Is this a common Arab Saif ?

[Victrix]

What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that.

[fernando]

Thank you for your favourable thoughts, Kai.

Victrix i take it that, the chain in place of the knuckle guard is a fashion practiced in diverse swords of diverse countries, and often discussed out there. I confess i ignore what is the consensual conclusion from such dicussions.

[qusko]

Hi,

I have seen recently similar saif with loose blade in the hilt.

Can anyone help me to understand the construction of that hilt (under the repuded silver plate)?
I was able to find this general description in http://ageaeditora.com/nimcha-616/


"
The identifying characteristics of a nimcha are as follows:

Handle: can be made with various materials (ivory, tortoiseshell, wood, horn…). It´s shape can be curved or in lion´s head, with or without ears, as can be seen in the next picture.

Tang: goes through the hilt and is fixed to it by a button-shaped rivet, or is riveted to a metal sheet of a size similar to the base of the hilt.

Knuckle bow: starts from the cross-guard and its shape can be in right angle (original shape) or in “S” (later evolution).

Crossguard: can be forward-swept, as the secondary upper quillion, or keep just this one, forward-swept too, while the quillions are joined together by forming a ring which protects the hand.
"

Was it attached with cutler resin?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Victrix

What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that.

Victrix, very pertinent question. These decorative chain guards are just that, and designed to enhance the embellishment of dress and court swords in many countries. Obviously there is no protective intent as the solid knuckle guard seen on many swords are theoretically for.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Victrix, very pertinent question. These decorative chain guards are just that, and designed to enhance the embellishment of dress and court swords in many countries. Obviously there is no protective intent as the solid knuckle guard seen on many swords are theoretically for.

Dear Colleagues,
If i may, i think these chains are also functional.
What is the purpose of the knuckle guard?
Only to protect the hand?
I'm not sure about that...
Another function is to make sure that the hand is comfortably connected to the handle/grip... to hold firmly the sword...
but it's just mho

kubur

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Colleagues,
If i may, i think these chains are also functional.
What is the purpose of the knuckle guard?
Only to protect the hand?
I'm not sure about that...
Another function is to make sure that the hand is comfortably connected to the handle/grip... to hold firmly the sword...
but it's just mho

kubur

Kubur, , as always, interesting perspective. I can only add what I have understood over the years asking these very questions myself. The adding of a knuckle guard was with the stirrup hilts swords which seems to have been widespread, has always been suggested to 'guard' the hand (knuckles).
Near the end of the 18th c. the cross bar off the knuckleguard was added for additional 'protection' …..added bars became the three bar style cavalry hilts.

This is basically what drove the development of complex guard systems such as the rapier from simple cross guards.

As these guards, including knuckle guards, are not in contact with the hand, but in effect closed 'over' it, I cannot see how they would be intended to add to ones grip on the sword. With the intended purpose of hand protection, I cannot see either, how a simple, flimsy chain would effect any use for hand protection or even 'securing' ones hand on a hilt.

The sword I have has the chain guard, which has broken loose several times just in storing and moving it......let alone any sort of combat use. Aside from my 'battle' with a ceiling fan with a tulwar in an unfortunate moment, I am usually pretty careful with my swords....so the damage to the chain guard on my sa'if was surprising.

As always though, your approach to seeking answers on all accounts is great in analysis.

With regard to items as 'vestigial' as these chain 'guards' , also curious are the shoulder chains often worn by British military officers during the Raj, recalling the wearing of mail to protect from sword cuts. These would hardly have served their ostensible purpose, but colorfully added to the character of the uniform. The use of the curious crescent shaped 'gorget' recalling armor plate also worn in this manner hardly served a real purpose otherwise, and were symbols of merit or rank.

[Kubur]

Hi Jim

It was just a comment, actually i have no specific idea about this chain.
Maybe a fencing instructor would be able to say if the chain might have any use during a fight. What are the effect of the vibrations during an impact between two blades? The curved grip is designed for the little finger and very confortable when you hold the sword...

For your chain, I have to say that I'm also always surprised to see how fragile are these objects. I guess age doesnt help... like us...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Kubur

Hi Jim

It was just a comment, actually i have no specific idea about this chain.
Maybe a fencing instructor would be able to say if the chain might have any use during a fight. What are the effect of the vibrations during an impact between two blades? The curved grip is designed for the little finger and very confortable when you hold the sword...

For your chain, I have to say that I'm also always surprised to see how fragile are these objects. I guess age doesnt help... like us...

Your comments are always intriguing, and set my curiosity in motion. Actually I have wondered about these decorative chains in place of a viable solid guard years ago as well. I never found any insight regarding them, and it became more a search for how old the use of them was. The only cases I ever found with them on swords were court and smallswords, and various dress type swords.

With your mention of vibration, possibly the impact or shock action that would result from hitting the target would suggest such a chain acting as a kind of 'sword knot' like the straps on hilts preventing the loss of the sword from the hand. While not 'guarding' the hand from cuts, it may supposedly offer some use in keeping the hand situated on the grip...…..but even that idea is tenuous.

Very true Kubur, age is good for wine and good scotch, but not so much in
us old timers

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

... Maybe a fencing instructor would be able to say if the chain might have any use during a fight ...

Some fencer i heard saying that, the chain knuckle bow "was mainly an artistic interpretation of the more rigid knucklebow we are all familiar with" also says, in response to whether its purpose was to prevent the user from dropping the sword, as "highly unlikely as, anyone who has ever fenced with smallswords or sabers will note that the knucklebow has done very little to stop a disarm".
The solution to such problem was indeed the sword knot.