Is this a common Arab Saif ?

fernando · 30th March 2018, 05:35 PM

I have been trying to figure out was is the purpose of that little ring near the top of the scabbard, which i later associate with that little strap in one of the examples in Hale's work. My first thought was that this must be some kind of decoration, seen in some Saif scabbard examples.
But then i saw a thread in that Jens shows how a loop was present in some Indian scabbards, alledgely for the purpose to loop over a handle quillon to prevent the sword from slipping out.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23764.

This is a rather long shot, plus i notice that the (woven silver) strap in Hale's example seems a bit short for that but, could it either stretch by pulling it up, or by means of some material elasticity ?
Any better ideas, Gentlemen ?

.

fernando · 1st April 2018, 06:56 PM

The more i think about these little appendixes being a 'lock' system, the more i am convinced. Look at these examples, how suggestive they are ... specially the one in the center.
(Courtesy Oriental Arms).

.

kai · 3rd April 2018, 11:43 AM

Hello Fernando,

Quote:

The more i think about these little appendixes being a 'lock' system, the more i am convinced.

Yes, I believe this is a suitable explanation for their function: The distance seems to be correct (also for the example in Bob's book) and the ring is consistently much weaker than those for the carrying loops!

Regards,
Kai

Victrix · 3rd April 2018, 12:25 PM

What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that.

fernando · 3rd April 2018, 02:09 PM

Thank you for your favourable thoughts, Kai.

Victrix i take it that, the chain in place of the knuckle guard is a fashion practiced in diverse swords of diverse countries, and often discussed out there. I confess i ignore what is the consensual conclusion from such dicussions.

qusko · 13th April 2019, 08:18 PM

Hi,

I have seen recently similar saif with loose blade in the hilt.

Can anyone help me to understand the construction of that hilt (under the repuded silver plate)?
I was able to find this general description in http://ageaeditora.com/nimcha-616/

"
The identifying characteristics of a nimcha are as follows:

Handle: can be made with various materials (ivory, tortoiseshell, wood, horn…). It´s shape can be curved or in lion´s head, with or without ears, as can be seen in the next picture.

Tang: goes through the hilt and is fixed to it by a button-shaped rivet, or is riveted to a metal sheet of a size similar to the base of the hilt.

Knuckle bow: starts from the cross-guard and its shape can be in right angle (original shape) or in “S” (later evolution).

Crossguard: can be forward-swept, as the secondary upper quillion, or keep just this one, forward-swept too, while the quillions are joined together by forming a ring which protects the hand.
"

Was it attached with cutler resin?

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2019, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that.

Victrix, very pertinent question. These decorative chain guards are just that, and designed to enhance the embellishment of dress and court swords in many countries. Obviously there is no protective intent as the solid knuckle guard seen on many swords are theoretically for.

Kubur · 16th April 2019, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Victrix, very pertinent question. These decorative chain guards are just that, and designed to enhance the embellishment of dress and court swords in many countries. Obviously there is no protective intent as the solid knuckle guard seen on many swords are theoretically for.

Dear Colleagues,
If i may, i think these chains are also functional.
What is the purpose of the knuckle guard?
Only to protect the hand?
I'm not sure about that...
Another function is to make sure that the hand is comfortably connected to the handle/grip... to hold firmly the sword...
but it's just mho

kubur

Jim McDougall · 17th April 2019, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Dear Colleagues,
If i may, i think these chains are also functional.
What is the purpose of the knuckle guard?
Only to protect the hand?
I'm not sure about that...
Another function is to make sure that the hand is comfortably connected to the handle/grip... to hold firmly the sword...
but it's just mho

kubur

Kubur, , as always, interesting perspective. I can only add what I have understood over the years asking these very questions myself. The adding of a knuckle guard was with the stirrup hilts swords which seems to have been widespread, has always been suggested to 'guard' the hand (knuckles).
Near the end of the 18th c. the cross bar off the knuckleguard was added for additional 'protection' …..added bars became the three bar style cavalry hilts.

This is basically what drove the development of complex guard systems such as the rapier from simple cross guards.

As these guards, including knuckle guards, are not in contact with the hand, but in effect closed 'over' it, I cannot see how they would be intended to add to ones grip on the sword. With the intended purpose of hand protection, I cannot see either, how a simple, flimsy chain would effect any use for hand protection or even 'securing' ones hand on a hilt.

The sword I have has the chain guard, which has broken loose several times just in storing and moving it......let alone any sort of combat use. Aside from my 'battle' with a ceiling fan with a tulwar in an unfortunate moment, I am usually pretty careful with my swords....so the damage to the chain guard on my sa'if was surprising.

As always though, your approach to seeking answers on all accounts is great in analysis.

With regard to items as 'vestigial' as these chain 'guards' , also curious are the shoulder chains often worn by British military officers during the Raj, recalling the wearing of mail to protect from sword cuts. These would hardly have served their ostensible purpose, but colorfully added to the character of the uniform. The use of the curious crescent shaped 'gorget' recalling armor plate also worn in this manner hardly served a real purpose otherwise, and were symbols of merit or rank.

30th March 2018, 05:35 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have been trying to figure out was is the purpose of that little ring near the top of the scabbard, which i later associate with that little strap in one of the examples in Hale's work. My first thought was that this must be some kind of decoration, seen in some Saif scabbard examples. But then i saw a thread in that Jens shows how a loop was present in some Indian scabbards, alledgely for the purpose to loop over a handle quillon to prevent the sword from slipping out. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23764. This is a rather long shot, plus i notice that the (woven silver) strap in Hale's example seems a bit short for that but, could it either stretch by pulling it up, or by means of some material elasticity ? Any better ideas, Gentlemen ? . Attached Images

1st April 2018, 06:56 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The more i think about these little appendixes being a 'lock' system, the more i am convinced. Look at these examples, how suggestive they are ... specially the one in the center. (Courtesy Oriental Arms). . Attached Images

3rd April 2018, 12:25 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	What about the little chains linking the quillon with the pommel? Is that merely for decoration? Surely their purpose is not to act as a knuckle guard as they are too flimsy for that.

3rd April 2018, 02:09 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for your favourable thoughts, Kai. Victrix i take it that, the chain in place of the knuckle guard is a fashion practiced in diverse swords of diverse countries, and often discussed out there. I confess i ignore what is the consensual conclusion from such dicussions.

13th April 2019, 08:18 PM	#6
qusko Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 62	Hi, I have seen recently similar saif with loose blade in the hilt. Can anyone help me to understand the construction of that hilt (under the repuded silver plate)? I was able to find this general description in http://ageaeditora.com/nimcha-616/ " The identifying characteristics of a nimcha are as follows: Handle: can be made with various materials (ivory, tortoiseshell, wood, horn…). It´s shape can be curved or in lion´s head, with or without ears, as can be seen in the next picture. Tang: goes through the hilt and is fixed to it by a button-shaped rivet, or is riveted to a metal sheet of a size similar to the base of the hilt. Knuckle bow: starts from the cross-guard and its shape can be in right angle (original shape) or in “S” (later evolution). Crossguard: can be forward-swept, as the secondary upper quillion, or keep just this one, forward-swept too, while the quillions are joined together by forming a ring which protects the hand. " Was it attached with cutler resin?