Indian scabbards

Pukka Bundook · 30th March 2018, 02:36 PM

Jens,

Is there any accounting for the 'fish tail' and the loop being always found together? It is interesting that loops do not appear to have been used on scabbards with no fish tail. I wonder why? Do you know if the loops on these leather covered scabbards were produced only in one locality? If this was so, it makes more sense maybe.

Very best,

Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th March 2018, 04:20 PM

Hi Richard,
Nice to hear from you:-).
I have seen no accounts to that they belong together. However, why make a 'fish tail' alone? The way I see it, they must have belong togher.
No, I dont know if these loops only were made locally, but I find it very unlikely, this was made all over India.
In old texts you can read what will hapen if the sword rattels in the scabbard. I seem to remember that someone in your family will die, so imagine if a sword falls out of its scabbard - you would likely be the one to die - it does say in the texts, but it is a very long time ago since I have read them.
A sword is quite a long thing, and the blade quite heavy, so I have difficulties to imagine how that would happen, but if you are superstitious enough, almost all can happen.
I think scabbards, other than the one dressed in leather, had a cord to tide the sword to the scabbard with. This would be fine, and could be changed when needed, but on a leather scabbard, when the loop was broken - that was it.
What makes me wonder is, that the makers of the leather scabbards did not make it easy to change the loop - when it broke, as we can see on many scabbards that it did.

Pukka Bundook · 1st April 2018, 02:00 PM

Good morning Jens, and Happy Easter!

The loop on the leather-covered scabbard may have lasted as long as the average scabbard.
By this I mean that if (In an organised day and age) scabbards became worn, and were re-covered every five years for example, then the loop would last this long without problems or breaking down.
If it Was viewed in this manner, then maybe no problems making the loop integral with the mouth.
If this line of thinking is correct, and there is nothing to suggest it is!....then the frailty with which we judge the loop now, would not be a problem at the time.
Of course, this in no way explains why loops are only found on leather covered scabbards.

I have not lost interest in Indian Arms Jens, but have been rather engulfed in other areas, including the torador/ar. Then I acquired a few ancient and sad European /English arms that require work, and it all takes my time.

Very best wishes my Friend, and please pass on my kindest regards to your dear wife.

PS,
We still have snow more than knee deep here. Minus 23 C at present!
No spring lambs and daffodils for Easter.

Richard.

fernando · 1st April 2018, 02:21 PM

Happy Easter everyone in here.
A mild temperatute in my neck of the woods: 16º C at 14:15 PM.
This 'loop' subject inspired me to speculate on other high flights, out of the Indian culture.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=34.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st April 2018, 04:12 PM

Richard,
How are 'my' cows doing in this weather?
I think whenever the leather was in a bad shape, due to much rain, heat or whatever, it would be replaces and a new loop added.
I find the 'fish tail' interesting. Why a 'fish tail'? Did it attach better to the scabbard when it was glued - or was there another reason? Fish did have a spacial meaning to many Indians.
To be quite honest. I believe the loop would go before the scabbard was worn. A sudden atack and you have to pull the sword fast - the loop is a gonner.
The sword belonging to the second scabbard I show, has a long straight double edged blade, and there is no way it would fall out of the scabbard, but maybe if it rattled in the scabbard it would be a bad omen.

Fernando,
It is very interesting what you show, and I do think you have a point.
Did the Arabs have the same sayings about when a sword rattels in a scabbard it is a bad omen - and stuff like that?

fernando · 1st April 2018, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Fernando,
It is very interesting what you show, and I do think you have a point.
Did the Arabs have the same sayings about when a sword rattels in a scabbard it is a bad omen - and stuff like that?

Oh Jens, i wouldn't know ... but i would like to.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st April 2018, 04:59 PM

Fernando,
Someone on this forum might know - hopefully.
Jens

30th March 2018, 02:36 PM	#1
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, Is there any accounting for the 'fish tail' and the loop being always found together? It is interesting that loops do not appear to have been used on scabbards with no fish tail. I wonder why? Do you know if the loops on these leather covered scabbards were produced only in one locality? If this was so, it makes more sense maybe. Very best, Richard.

30th March 2018, 04:20 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Richard, Nice to hear from you:-). I have seen no accounts to that they belong together. However, why make a 'fish tail' alone? The way I see it, they must have belong togher. No, I dont know if these loops only were made locally, but I find it very unlikely, this was made all over India. In old texts you can read what will hapen if the sword rattels in the scabbard. I seem to remember that someone in your family will die, so imagine if a sword falls out of its scabbard - you would likely be the one to die - it does say in the texts, but it is a very long time ago since I have read them. A sword is quite a long thing, and the blade quite heavy, so I have difficulties to imagine how that would happen, but if you are superstitious enough, almost all can happen. I think scabbards, other than the one dressed in leather, had a cord to tide the sword to the scabbard with. This would be fine, and could be changed when needed, but on a leather scabbard, when the loop was broken - that was it. What makes me wonder is, that the makers of the leather scabbards did not make it easy to change the loop - when it broke, as we can see on many scabbards that it did.

1st April 2018, 02:00 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Jens, and Happy Easter! The loop on the leather-covered scabbard may have lasted as long as the average scabbard. By this I mean that if (In an organised day and age) scabbards became worn, and were re-covered every five years for example, then the loop would last this long without problems or breaking down. If it Was viewed in this manner, then maybe no problems making the loop integral with the mouth. If this line of thinking is correct, and there is nothing to suggest it is!....then the frailty with which we judge the loop now, would not be a problem at the time. Of course, this in no way explains why loops are only found on leather covered scabbards. I have not lost interest in Indian Arms Jens, but have been rather engulfed in other areas, including the torador/ar. Then I acquired a few ancient and sad European /English arms that require work, and it all takes my time. Very best wishes my Friend, and please pass on my kindest regards to your dear wife. PS, We still have snow more than knee deep here. Minus 23 C at present! No spring lambs and daffodils for Easter. Richard.

1st April 2018, 02:21 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Happy Easter everyone in here. A mild temperatute in my neck of the woods: 16º C at 14:15 PM. This 'loop' subject inspired me to speculate on other high flights, out of the Indian culture. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=34.

1st April 2018, 04:12 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Richard, How are 'my' cows doing in this weather? I think whenever the leather was in a bad shape, due to much rain, heat or whatever, it would be replaces and a new loop added. I find the 'fish tail' interesting. Why a 'fish tail'? Did it attach better to the scabbard when it was glued - or was there another reason? Fish did have a spacial meaning to many Indians. To be quite honest. I believe the loop would go before the scabbard was worn. A sudden atack and you have to pull the sword fast - the loop is a gonner. The sword belonging to the second scabbard I show, has a long straight double edged blade, and there is no way it would fall out of the scabbard, but maybe if it rattled in the scabbard it would be a bad omen. Fernando, It is very interesting what you show, and I do think you have a point. Did the Arabs have the same sayings about when a sword rattels in a scabbard it is a bad omen - and stuff like that?

1st April 2018, 04:59 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, Someone on this forum might know - hopefully. Jens