Indian scabbards

ariel · 28th March 2018, 07:00 PM

Really old Indian scabbards must be rarer than hen's teeth: dry heat, wet heat, rains....

Anything from early 19th century in good condition would be a unique example, except for something stored in a royal palace and attended to on a regular basis.

I remember reading somewhere that the Russian War Ministry specified scabbards replacement for cossack hosts ( they were made of wood/leather) every 3 years or something similar. Every time a sword was taken out or put into the scabbard, it cut the wooden inserts and the leather, the leather dried out ( Jens' example) or just rotted.

The reason we see those gorgeous scabbards in Wallace Collection is because they were made largely post 1870 in royal workshops and immediately sold as souvenirs to European museums, dealers and just for the general public to hang them on the wall in their British libraries next to Victorian copies of " medieval" swords..

Jens Nordlunde · 29th March 2018, 05:32 PM

Ariel is, no doubt, right about leather scabbards often in use, but as he also writes, 'except for something stored in a royal palace and attended to on a regular basis.'
I believe this is one of these cases, where the sword was seldom used, and taken very good care of when is was not used. This is why I believe the sword and the scabbard are of the same age.

ariel · 29th March 2018, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ariel is, no doubt, right about leather scabbards often in use, but as he also writes, 'except for something stored in a royal palace and attended to on a regular basis.'
I believe this is one of these cases, where the sword was seldom used, and taken very good care of when is was not used. This is why I believe the sword and the scabbard are of the same age.

Very possible.

The leather is in a bad shape, but may be original 18th century.

Pukka Bundook · 30th March 2018, 03:36 PM

Jens,

Is there any accounting for the 'fish tail' and the loop being always found together? It is interesting that loops do not appear to have been used on scabbards with no fish tail. I wonder why? Do you know if the loops on these leather covered scabbards were produced only in one locality? If this was so, it makes more sense maybe.

Very best,

Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 30th March 2018, 05:20 PM

Hi Richard,
Nice to hear from you:-).
I have seen no accounts to that they belong together. However, why make a 'fish tail' alone? The way I see it, they must have belong togher.
No, I dont know if these loops only were made locally, but I find it very unlikely, this was made all over India.
In old texts you can read what will hapen if the sword rattels in the scabbard. I seem to remember that someone in your family will die, so imagine if a sword falls out of its scabbard - you would likely be the one to die - it does say in the texts, but it is a very long time ago since I have read them.
A sword is quite a long thing, and the blade quite heavy, so I have difficulties to imagine how that would happen, but if you are superstitious enough, almost all can happen.
I think scabbards, other than the one dressed in leather, had a cord to tide the sword to the scabbard with. This would be fine, and could be changed when needed, but on a leather scabbard, when the loop was broken - that was it.
What makes me wonder is, that the makers of the leather scabbards did not make it easy to change the loop - when it broke, as we can see on many scabbards that it did.

Pukka Bundook · 1st April 2018, 03:00 PM

Good morning Jens, and Happy Easter!

The loop on the leather-covered scabbard may have lasted as long as the average scabbard.
By this I mean that if (In an organised day and age) scabbards became worn, and were re-covered every five years for example, then the loop would last this long without problems or breaking down.
If it Was viewed in this manner, then maybe no problems making the loop integral with the mouth.
If this line of thinking is correct, and there is nothing to suggest it is!....then the frailty with which we judge the loop now, would not be a problem at the time.
Of course, this in no way explains why loops are only found on leather covered scabbards.

I have not lost interest in Indian Arms Jens, but have been rather engulfed in other areas, including the torador/ar. Then I acquired a few ancient and sad European /English arms that require work, and it all takes my time.

Very best wishes my Friend, and please pass on my kindest regards to your dear wife.

PS,
We still have snow more than knee deep here. Minus 23 C at present!
No spring lambs and daffodils for Easter.

Richard.

fernando · 1st April 2018, 03:21 PM

Happy Easter everyone in here.
A mild temperatute in my neck of the woods: 16º C at 14:15 PM.
This 'loop' subject inspired me to speculate on other high flights, out of the Indian culture.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=34.

28th March 2018, 07:00 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Really old Indian scabbards must be rarer than hen's teeth: dry heat, wet heat, rains.... Anything from early 19th century in good condition would be a unique example, except for something stored in a royal palace and attended to on a regular basis. I remember reading somewhere that the Russian War Ministry specified scabbards replacement for cossack hosts ( they were made of wood/leather) every 3 years or something similar. Every time a sword was taken out or put into the scabbard, it cut the wooden inserts and the leather, the leather dried out ( Jens' example) or just rotted. The reason we see those gorgeous scabbards in Wallace Collection is because they were made largely post 1870 in royal workshops and immediately sold as souvenirs to European museums, dealers and just for the general public to hang them on the wall in their British libraries next to Victorian copies of " medieval" swords..

29th March 2018, 05:32 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel is, no doubt, right about leather scabbards often in use, but as he also writes, 'except for something stored in a royal palace and attended to on a regular basis.' I believe this is one of these cases, where the sword was seldom used, and taken very good care of when is was not used. This is why I believe the sword and the scabbard are of the same age.

30th March 2018, 03:36 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jens, Is there any accounting for the 'fish tail' and the loop being always found together? It is interesting that loops do not appear to have been used on scabbards with no fish tail. I wonder why? Do you know if the loops on these leather covered scabbards were produced only in one locality? If this was so, it makes more sense maybe. Very best, Richard.

30th March 2018, 05:20 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Richard, Nice to hear from you:-). I have seen no accounts to that they belong together. However, why make a 'fish tail' alone? The way I see it, they must have belong togher. No, I dont know if these loops only were made locally, but I find it very unlikely, this was made all over India. In old texts you can read what will hapen if the sword rattels in the scabbard. I seem to remember that someone in your family will die, so imagine if a sword falls out of its scabbard - you would likely be the one to die - it does say in the texts, but it is a very long time ago since I have read them. A sword is quite a long thing, and the blade quite heavy, so I have difficulties to imagine how that would happen, but if you are superstitious enough, almost all can happen. I think scabbards, other than the one dressed in leather, had a cord to tide the sword to the scabbard with. This would be fine, and could be changed when needed, but on a leather scabbard, when the loop was broken - that was it. What makes me wonder is, that the makers of the leather scabbards did not make it easy to change the loop - when it broke, as we can see on many scabbards that it did.

1st April 2018, 03:00 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Jens, and Happy Easter! The loop on the leather-covered scabbard may have lasted as long as the average scabbard. By this I mean that if (In an organised day and age) scabbards became worn, and were re-covered every five years for example, then the loop would last this long without problems or breaking down. If it Was viewed in this manner, then maybe no problems making the loop integral with the mouth. If this line of thinking is correct, and there is nothing to suggest it is!....then the frailty with which we judge the loop now, would not be a problem at the time. Of course, this in no way explains why loops are only found on leather covered scabbards. I have not lost interest in Indian Arms Jens, but have been rather engulfed in other areas, including the torador/ar. Then I acquired a few ancient and sad European /English arms that require work, and it all takes my time. Very best wishes my Friend, and please pass on my kindest regards to your dear wife. PS, We still have snow more than knee deep here. Minus 23 C at present! No spring lambs and daffodils for Easter. Richard.

1st April 2018, 03:21 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Happy Easter everyone in here. A mild temperatute in my neck of the woods: 16º C at 14:15 PM. This 'loop' subject inspired me to speculate on other high flights, out of the Indian culture. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...3&postcount=34.