Former Bayonet

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by thinreadline

Absolutely Chris , obsolete bayonets are continually refashioned into sidearms or knives, both in near contemporary times and much later ... often by those who have a need for these objects but also by modern hobbyists ... this is a sidearm made from a German Seitengewehr bayonet by a friend of mine 40 years ago ! If it passed into the hands of a less than scrupulous dealer , then dont doubt it would acquire a 'cock and bull' story to enhance its value !

Yes, it is a shame that bayonets of historical significance are destroyed in this manner.

This was given a good airing in an Argentine forum a few years ago and disaproved of.

Cheers
Chris

[RobT]

Chris,

I have and have seen many 100+ year old blades in as good or better condition. Although I mentioned the superb condition of the blade in my initial post, I clearly stated that I considered the condition of the hilt and sheath to be the extraordinary issue and I reiterated this in my first response to Fernando K. His surmise that the hilt and sheath were actually created in the early 20th century could be a likely explanation for the excellent condition of those components. The blade condition isn't remarkable because, although the model is designated as 1871, the blade in question may have been made some years after that and may have sat in military storage for many years before it was sold as surplus or stolen. I would have to disagree that this piece was a working knife. The type of craftsmanship on the hilt and sheath is only seen on prestige/fighting weapons that are never used for labor which would quite quickly degrade the dress. As for who might have had use for such a large knife, perhaps it was worn as a symbol of authority/macho by a ranch owner or foreman who was channeling romantic notions of the Gaucho glory days. The blade could have even originally belonged to a deceased relative and thus, for sentimental reasons, be deemed worthy of fine dress. Whatever the explanation, nobody would put all that work into a movie prop.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Chris Evans]

Hi,

If I were restricted to a single book to understand the Pampean culture, it would be Richard W. Slata’s well researched and scholarly work, Gauchos and the Vanishing Frontier.

To better understand the current portrayal of gaucho lore, here’s a quote from Slatta’s introduction to the 1992 edition:

Faced with rapid socioeconomic changes, Argentina’s intelligentsia experienced a sense of loss and fear. The flood tide of foreigners seemed to imperil Argentinidad, the essential Argentine national character. Nationalists resurrected and rehabilitated the once maligned gaucho. He became a symbol, and ideological weapon, used by the ruling elite against the threatening demands of immigrant workers.

As the historical gaucho receded into the endless pampa horizon, a new “sanitized”, romanticized version appeared in the nation’s culture and politics. The ruling elite that successfully subdued the gaucho now enshrined him in national mythology.

In the chapter titled Who was the Gaucho? Slatta writes:

It seems likely that gauchos first appeared along the Argentine bank of the Rio de la Plata as wild cattle hunters seeking livestock that spread along the river from Asuncion, Paraguay, during the late sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries.

And

In Argentina, the term first appeared in a complaint of 1774 by government officials of gauchos or cattle thieves operating in the Banda Oriental – a wild, largely ungoverned frontier region.

And:

During the nineteenth century, the term gaucho became generalized to refer to all native rural workers.

From the above we can see that the halcyon days of the gauchos preceded the 19th century, yet that century forms the focal point of nearly all the extant literature on the subject, a period of immense and rapid change that made this legendary wild horseman’s lifestyle untenable. Also, that the primary preoccupation of gauchos was hunting wild cattle and horses, and not the incidental fighting that receives so much attention nowadays.

The other sources that I listed in my earlier post enlarge on what Slatta wrote, and are essentially in agreement.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by RobT

Chris,

I have and have seen many 100+ year old blades in as good or better condition. Although I mentioned the superb condition of the blade in my initial post, I clearly stated that I considered the condition of the hilt and sheath to be the extraordinary issue and I reiterated this in my first response to Fernando K. His surmise that the hilt and sheath were actually created in the early 20th century could be a likely explanation for the excellent condition of those components. The blade condition isn't remarkable because, although the model is designated as 1871, the blade in question may have been made some years after that and may have sat in military storage for many years before it was sold as surplus or stolen. I would have to disagree that this piece was a working knife. The type of craftsmanship on the hilt and sheath is only seen on prestige/fighting weapons that are never used for labor which would quite quickly degrade the dress. As for who might have had use for such a large knife, perhaps it was worn as a symbol of authority/macho by a ranch owner or foreman who was channeling romantic notions of the Gaucho glory days. The blade could have even originally belonged to a deceased relative and thus, for sentimental reasons, be deemed worthy of fine dress. Whatever the explanation, nobody would put all that work into a movie prop.

Sincerely,
RobT

I take your observations as valid value because it is not possible for readers like me to judge the quality of a weapon like this from mere photographs.

Re your other points, all I can say is that all the late and modern large facons that I have seen had ornate silver or the much cheaper alpaca (German silver) furnishings, and I haven't seen anything like yours.

It may be worth your while to write to Abel Domenech, the foremost expert on this subject who is fluent in English, and ask for his opinion. He has answered such queries in the past, and can be contacted at dagasdeplata@yahoo.com - His website is http://www.domenech.com.ar/

Cheers
Chris

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone

All right. Here it has been a weapon used in Argentina and Argentina not only includes the pampa but also the mountains, the mountain, the jungle, the mountain range. In all these regions the knife was used in its different variants.

So we must separate the context, otherwise we would end up in a sociological and ethnographic discussion.

The work of Domenech "Daggers of Silver" has been cited. In the first word, in the Introduction, he uses Pampa, thus limiting the appearance of the gaucho character (whatever he wants to call him: gauderio, camilucho, changador) to the pampa.

The gaucho was born of the mixture of two bloods, the Spanish and the Indian, and the introduction of the horse and the cattle.

It says somewhere that the first gaucho types appeared in the eighteenth century. He does not know the mention of Hernandarias, he describes it at the beginning of the 17th century. The same for Aguirre, who places it in the province of Tucuman, for the same time.

The same goes for Slatta, which qualifies him as a hunter of wild cattle, horses and cattle. It is true that it occurred in a certain place and time, but you can not take this characteristic as a definition.

As for the state of the sheet, nothing can be said. Perhaps he has taken care of his previous or previous owner, and maybe he has cleaned himself up. The same goes for leather work on the handle and the sheath. Known is that artisans (the sogueros) like perfection, however humble the material

Sorry for the translator

affectionately. Fernando K

[Chris Evans]

Hola Fernando K,

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello everyone

All right. Here it has been a weapon used in Argentina and Argentina not only includes the pampa but also the mountains, the mountain, the jungle, the mountain range. In all these regions the knife was used in its different variants.

Yes, that is so, knives are found all over the world. However, certain typologies are bound to certain regions and differ from other knives because of their specialized and distinctive features.

So we must separate the context, otherwise we would end up in a sociological and ethnographic discussion.

To establish the context in which these ethnographic weapons were used, at least a superficial understanding of the then prevailing social, ethnographic and environmental conditions is required.

The work of Domenech "Daggers of Silver" has been cited. In the first word, in the Introduction, he uses Pampa, thus limiting the appearance of the gaucho character (whatever he wants to call him: gauderio, camilucho, changador) to the pampa.

Yes.

The gaucho was born of the mixture of two bloods, the Spanish and the Indian, and the introduction of the horse and the cattle.

Agree, though most scholars would add the grassy flatlands where the cattle and wild horses abounded. And it is in these terms that gauchos became recognizable as a distinct social group with its own equestrian culture.

It says somewhere that the first gaucho types appeared in the eighteenth century. He does not know the mention of Hernandarias, he describes it at the beginning of the 17th century. The same for Aguirre, who places it in the province of Tucuman, for the same time.

Although there is no certainty, for lack of records, roving men who lived off the wild cattle and horses, would have appeared soon after white settlement, sometime in the 17th century, maybe earlier. The regional birthplace of the gaucho has been a subject of debate and opinions differ. Paul Grousac opined that it was in the Banda Oriental (present Uruguay) and E.R Coni thought that it was Santa Fe, and so on.

The same goes for Slatta, which qualifies him as a hunter of wild cattle, horses and cattle. It is true that it occurred in a certain place and time, but you can not take this characteristic as a definition.

Why not? After all, you yourself said above that the gaucho was born as a result of the introduction of the horse and cattle.

However, we have already established that in the course of the 19th century the term “ gaucho” came to include all rural workers and eventually in the in the 20th even an advertising slogan, “una marca gaucha” which, being a nuanced idiomatic expression that cannot be literally translated, means the brand of a good and reliable commercial product.

A final comment: The facon and its variants made for a very poor weapon, and as such it only served in brawls.

As we know, the universal weapon of the mounted warrior was the sabre and the pistol. In the pampas, those who could, availed themselves of firearms and swords, but access to these was severely curtailed. Blunderbusses were popular and the large property owners, police and military were equipped with firearms and sabres, the later even with cuirasses. Gauchos were destitute vagabonds who had to do with meagre resources and this included their tools and weapons; The only real weapon that the gaucho could lay his hands on was a lance made from cane (caña tacuara) with his knife tied to its end.

I think that we have given this subject as much attention as it requires in relation to Rob’s facon. If you would like to continue this discussion, I will be happy to oblige with PMs, and if you prefer we could do so in Spanish.

Con un Abrazo Cordial
Chris

[RobT]

Hi All,

Three last things need to be said. First is a reiteration of my thanks to all who responded. Second is my agreement with Tim Simmons response. I have always felt that native artisans using traditional methods, materials, and artistic motifs can turn the most straight-laced western military blades into rock stars. Lastly, I profoundly thank Chris Evans for his recommendation that I contact Abel Domenech and for his providing me the means to do so. I have emailed Mr Domenich, supplied the photos, and mentioned the Vikingsword discussion.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Chris Evans]

Hi Rob,

I appreciate your kind words, and when you get reply from Mr Domenech, please let us know what his thoughts are.

Cheers
Chris