Former Bayonet

[Fernando K]

Hello

A series of personal interpretations, from the sources or bibliography, which seems to be fundamentally Domenech. Domenech is an Argentine essayist, and his expressions must submit to criticism.

He maintains that the gauchos were "forbidden" after the war of independence. Exactly the gauchos or criollos were the members of the liberating armies and later, of the fratricidal struggles. The facones, caroneros or no, like all type of knife, continued using, in spite of the real cedulas or the republican decrees.

You can stay calm. Nowhere have I argued that this FONCON CARONERO was made in the 19th century, but that it considered that the reconversion would be of the first half of the 20th century.

The illustration that accompanies your post says just "Shows a Creole hamstring knife" and in the right hand seems to have a knife or a short facon (not a CARONERO), whose pod is seen in the waist, on the back

Fernando K

[RobT]

Hi All,

Thanks to all for the lively debate and the additional information.
Chris, the tang is completely hidden by very fine basketweave. The striations on the metal oval are straight and were probably made by a file. The metal oval appears to be made of heavily patinated brass. It isn't magnetic. I don't agree with your suspicions about authenticity for three reasons. One: All the work on the hilt and sheath are too finely and carefully done for a piece intended for monetary gain. The workmanship clearly shows that the crafting was done either by or for a person who had a high regard for the blade. Two: if an individual had dressed an old blade specifically for profitable sale as a Gaucho facon, wouldn't have been more marketable and less time consuming to use the more typical and expected metal fittings? Three: I got this piece from a dealer who had obtained part of an old collection and I didn't pay more than the cost of dinner for two at a mid price restaurant.
Fernando K, I agree with your belief that the hilt and sheath work was probably done in the early 20th century but I wouldn't rule out something like 1890. The condition of the materials is too good for any earlier date. However, since the bayonet model was originally made in Germany in 1871, the current mounts may not be the first civilian hilt and sheath the blade has seen.

Sincerely,
RobT

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi All,

Thanks to all for the lively debate and the additional information.
Chris, the tang is completely hidden by very fine basketweave. The striations on the metal oval are straight and were probably made by a file. The metal oval appears to be made of heavily patinated brass. It isn't magnetic. I don't agree with your suspicions about authenticity for three reasons. One: All the work on the hilt and sheath are too finely and carefully done for a piece intended for monetary gain. The workmanship clearly shows that the crafting was done either by or for a person who had a high regard for the blade. Two: if an individual had dressed an old blade specifically for profitable sale as a Gaucho facon, wouldn't have been more marketable and less time consuming to use the more typical and expected metal fittings? Three: I got this piece from a dealer who had obtained part of an old collection and I didn't pay more than the cost of dinner for two at a mid price restaurant.
Fernando K, I agree with your belief that the hilt and sheath work was probably done in the early 20th century but I wouldn't rule out something like 1890. The condition of the materials is too good for any earlier date. However, since the bayonet model was originally made in Germany in 1871, the current mounts may not be the first civilian hilt and sheath the blade has seen.

Sincerely,
RobT

We still have to somehow account for a) the excellent state of the blade, and b) who would have had a need for such a large knife by that time.

I agree entirely with Fernando that this knife was made in the 20th century.

Most of the large facons of the later times were ostentatious status symbols and as such fitted with ornate silver furnishings. But yours appears to be more of a working knife - A movie prop perhaps? Just speculating...

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

Hello

A series of personal interpretations, from the sources or bibliography, which seems to be fundamentally Domenech. Domenech is an Argentine essayist, and his expressions must submit to criticism.

He maintains that the gauchos were "forbidden" after the war of independence. Exactly the gauchos or criollos were the members of the liberating armies and later, of the fratricidal struggles. The facones, caroneros or no, like all type of knife, continued using, in spite of the real cedulas or the republican decrees.

Fernando K

Doemenech's Dagas de Plata is probably the best book on the subject to date, a vast advance on Osornio’s little book, and an invaluable resource for collectors; But it has its limitations on account of what he could fit into a single volume and thus he could only scratch the surface of the history of the flatlands and thus contextualize the weapons that his work deals with.

As I said in my earlier post, a huge problem for the modern student of the subject is that the "word" gaucho dramatically changed meaning in the course of the 19th and 20th centuries and with it the depiction of the attendant equestrian culture of the pampas, which included weaponry. This has resulted in a very misleading presentation of the related subjects by most writers, and one has to have a good grasp of history to be able to disentangle facts from what are often mere romantic eulogies of a bygone era.

Works like Martin Fierro and Facundo Quiroga will broaden one’s understanding as will works in English like Gauchos & The Vanishing Frontier by Slatta, Argentine Caudillo Juan Manuel De Rosas, and Massacre In The Pampas, 1872, both by Lynch.

The challenge for collectors is to understand the men of the pampas in a rapidly changing cultural environment, as that once barely populated wilderness was settled and transformed into the source of the prosperity that characterized the “bella epoca” by way of commercial grazing. And all this occurred in less than a century, commencing around 1810 and ending by around 1890.

Cheers
Chris