Flintlock Musket Advice Required

colin henshaw · 14th March 2018, 09:39 AM

This example was sold in England recently, described as a Hudsons Bay Company musket. As can be seen, it has the same sort of red/orange thick paint finish.

corrado26 · 14th March 2018, 11:10 AM

I checked the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson Bay Company 1670 to 1970" by S. James Gooding:

Other than shape, Wood and stock finish are the only other feature to be considered. In 1717 the secretary gave an order to Mr. Hawkins "the Proof Master" for, amongst other things, "70 Gunstocks Sound and of a Dark Colour at 3s pr stock". In 1769 the Gorvernor and Committee wrote "Thos. Hopkins and Council at Albany Fort "We have ordered as many of the guns to be white stocked as we could procure". The 1717 stock"of a dark colour" would have been of walnut while the White stocks would have been beech, both Woods which were commonly used by Ordnance Department at the time of Military arms.
At a Meeting of the Gorvernor and Committee of the HBC held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered " ....that in future the guns have Brown Stocks (no White) the Barrel likewise Brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz to them for strength.

No word of orange or reddish stocks at all!
corrado26

Oliver Pinchot · 14th March 2018, 05:48 PM

We've had several of these walk in over the years; not my area per se
but they are usually associated with Colonial Africa.

I knew Jim Gooding for many years, he was a fine scholar and professor who
was precise in his research and clear in his writing; no ambiguity with him. If he doesn't mention orange-painted stocks vis a vis Hudson Bay guns in his book, it's pretty certain they should not be attributed to that area.

Norman McCormick · 14th March 2018, 08:04 PM

Hi,
Many thanks to all for the continued interest, info and advice.
Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 15th March 2018, 01:08 PM

Gentlemen, let me add a further 'touch up' to my humble participation in the paint issue, once my previous post #8 was somehow inconclusive...

Here is an Africanized Lazarina. Barrel mouth reinforced with skin, stock comb decorated with leather strips and the inevitable brass nails and washers. The octogonal barrel with Birmingham proof marks and the number 15 (bore?), with the traditional inscription LAZARO LAZARINO LEGITIMO DE BRAGA. The lock and other parts are of national (Portuguese) production.
For those unfamiliar with the portuguese, i will give it a try at translating the part referring to the paint subject:

One of the particularities of interest in this example is that it preserves the original woods (often replaced in Africa with more noble woods) which used to leave Portugal painted red. Remnants of the original colour may be seen under the washers and skin reinforcements that turned open with time

( Courtesy Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES)

.

Norman McCormick · 15th March 2018, 09:57 PM

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the further info.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

14th March 2018, 09:39 AM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	This example was sold in England recently, described as a Hudsons Bay Company musket. As can be seen, it has the same sort of red/orange thick paint finish. Attached Images

15th March 2018, 01:08 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Gentlemen, let me add a further 'touch up' to my humble participation in the paint issue, once my previous post #8 was somehow inconclusive... Here is an Africanized Lazarina. Barrel mouth reinforced with skin, stock comb decorated with leather strips and the inevitable brass nails and washers. The octogonal barrel with Birmingham proof marks and the number 15 (bore?), with the traditional inscription LAZARO LAZARINO LEGITIMO DE BRAGA. The lock and other parts are of national (Portuguese) production. For those unfamiliar with the portuguese, i will give it a try at translating the part referring to the paint subject: One of the particularities of interest in this example is that it preserves the original woods (often replaced in Africa with more noble woods) which used to leave Portugal painted red. Remnants of the original colour may be seen under the washers and skin reinforcements that turned open with time ( Courtesy Eduardo Nobre in AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES) . Attached Images

14th March 2018, 11:10 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,231	I checked the book "Trade Guns of the Hudson Bay Company 1670 to 1970" by S. James Gooding: Other than shape, Wood and stock finish are the only other feature to be considered. In 1717 the secretary gave an order to Mr. Hawkins "the Proof Master" for, amongst other things, "70 Gunstocks Sound and of a Dark Colour at 3s pr stock". In 1769 the Gorvernor and Committee wrote "Thos. Hopkins and Council at Albany Fort "We have ordered as many of the guns to be white stocked as we could procure". The 1717 stock"of a dark colour" would have been of walnut while the White stocks would have been beech, both Woods which were commonly used by Ordnance Department at the time of Military arms. At a Meeting of the Gorvernor and Committee of the HBC held on December 20, 1780 it was ordered " ....that in future the guns have Brown Stocks (no White) the Barrel likewise Brown with an additional Weight of 6 oz to them for strength. No word of orange or reddish stocks at all! corrado26

14th March 2018, 05:48 PM	#3
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	We've had several of these walk in over the years; not my area per se but they are usually associated with Colonial Africa. I knew Jim Gooding for many years, he was a fine scholar and professor who was precise in his research and clear in his writing; no ambiguity with him. If he doesn't mention orange-painted stocks vis a vis Hudson Bay guns in his book, it's pretty certain they should not be attributed to that area.

14th March 2018, 08:04 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi, Many thanks to all for the continued interest, info and advice. Regards, Norman.

15th March 2018, 09:57 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Fernando, Many thanks for the further info. Kind Regards, Norman.