The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored. - Page 10

fernando · 19th October 2017, 05:08 PM

Old 21st December 2016, 12:25 PM #300

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Bravo !!!This thread is astounding...and has just gone through 100 thousand viewings...
.

Victrix · 24th January 2018, 10:20 PM

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

fernando · 25th January 2018, 10:22 PM

I woldn't know about the four dots mark, but i guess this is more a symbol than properly a maker's mark.
You could also find the four dots in early hand cannons; maybe just a concidence.

.

.

Victrix · 25th January 2018, 10:43 PM

Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?

fernando · 26th January 2018, 04:16 PM

It would take someone with more knowledge to answer your questions; even the assumption that the (four) dots are not maker's marks but a period fashion symbol ... or both. ´
When i bought my cannons i have made some search and resumed that the four dots were typical marks of 15th century short cannons; something certainly not applicable to those in your sword.
Whether there is a time line linking both, i ignore.
In any case, why don't you show us the whole of your sword ?

Victrix · 26th January 2018, 04:30 PM

Fernando, I presented the sword in a separate thread previously. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I thought I would follow up on the four dots mark in this thread dealing specifically with marks, and see if someone recognized them. Are your [small] cannons from a particular geographic location? Could they be the mark of a foundry producing iron? Perhaps the cannons were cast at this foundry and then marked accordingly?

fernando · 26th January 2018, 07:30 PM

These (three in all) examples are in principle Spanish. They were forged, not cast; those appeared much later. The four dots were surely the mark of the workshop but, as you know, very often early marks represented symbols, magic and so. I remember now who said these were 15th century marks.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...08&postcount=3
I would not associate these dots with the ones in your sword; after all, dots are a symbol easy to occur everywhere and in different periods, as also in more complex setups, like in edged weapons.

.

Victrix · 26th January 2018, 08:31 PM

I think the three dots with sickle marks tend to be associated with Northern Italy and may represent the Holy Trinity or some say, even grapes.

Maybe the four dots represent some kind of Gothic quatrefoil/kleeblatt which in turn may represent a cross or the four gospels in the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). It may just be a kind of superstitious good luck sign or blessing. I was just wondering because because it seemed to replace the ”Pottenstein” engraved example in Wagner’s book.

ariel · 26th January 2018, 11:07 PM

Victrix,
Please show the entire sword and separately the handle.
There seems to be a twist that pushes me toward Georgian Khmali. I may be wrong, but need better pics.

Victrix · 27th January 2018, 12:24 AM

Ariel, I may have expressed myself in a clumsy way. Only the first sword is mine. It was presented in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528

I found the picture of the second sword in the forum elsewhere and posted it only for comparison to show the gurda marks. My question is if anyone is familiar with the four dots mark shown on the sabre in the first picture.

fernando · 6th February 2018, 03:49 PM

Just one last note on the four dots symbol ... as once posted HERE

.

Victrix · 6th February 2018, 07:58 PM

Yes there is that mark again. Many thanks, Fernando. Interesting. Until I’m enlightened further I’m inclined to believe that the mark is either religious (cross symbol) or something marking good iron/steel. Or could be both: a foundry mark by a religious smith!

Victrix · 10th February 2018, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Old 22nd February 2012, 07:34 PM #222

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hoping that possibly more might be added on the arm in the clouds, and possible tarot card association in the style of the artwork.

All the best,
Jim
.

No tarot card association, but when visiting the Heeresgeschichtliches (Army) Museum in Vienna last Christmas I spotted the swordarm in the clouds symbol on a battle flag (the one on the right) in a painting showing the siege of Vienna by the Ottomans in 1683. It’s clearly wielded by Hungarian hussars wearing furs of predator animals and armed with curved sabres. A sign stated that the symbol was popular with the hussars at the time. Much later this symbol was apparently also the coat of arms for Bosnia Hercegovina after Austria-Hungary invaded and occupied this Ottoman territory in 1878. I don’t know what the symbol means but would guess it represents the sword of God from heaven?

Victrix · 12th February 2018, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

I encountered the four dots mark on a sabre at the Warzaw Army Museum (see picture) believed to have belonged to Hungarian noble man Stephan Bathory who was Prince of Transylvania 1571-76 and King of Poland 1575-86. He is credited with bringing the hussars (the light cavalry, not the winged, variety) to Poland.

Billman · 6th March 2018, 06:56 PM

Hi
I joined this forum some years ago, but not been active recently as I had lost track of things when my old computer crashed. My interest is edge tools, primarily the billhook, but also axes and sickles... Many edge tool makers also made weapons, and vice versa - the Klingenthal Royal Armoury works in Alsace became known as Coulaux et Cie, taillandiers (edge tool makers)..

Thus there may well be a great overlap in makers marks - tools are way undervalued as historical artifacts, and many agricultural tools are mis-sold as weapons - often by reputable dealers who should know better... The number of battle axes and beheading axes that are just specialist tools, is beyond belief...

There is an excellent Wiki site showing many of the touch marks used by Austrian scythe smiths, and which probably includes Styria/Slovenia...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_...C3%96sterreich

Below Are some of the marks used by Austrian smiths, found on axes etc..

Also the main reason for getting my account here active once more - I have just bought a Polish hewing axe, with a sword shaped touch mark that I recognise, but cannot remember - can anyone identify it for me???

Billman · 6th March 2018, 07:33 PM

This German site has stamps of edge tool makers who made wood chisels - they would have made other tools, and some may have also made weapons...

http://alte-beitel.de/index.php/warenzeichen

and thus: Franz Damisch, Ybbsitz (Austria)

chregu · 6th March 2018, 07:52 PM

can be found on axes and Halbart
were used until the 19th century

http://www.michaelblank.at/collection-of-edgded-media/

sorry for my bad english

Victrix · 11th March 2018, 09:21 PM

Many thanks for posting those blacksmiths’ marks? Does anyone have a list of sword/bladesmiths’ marks from Styria?

fernando · 12th March 2018, 02:15 PM

Could they have some publication covering marks in the Graz Museum ?

https://www.museum-joanneum.at/

Victrix · 23rd December 2018, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

There’s an 18thC Ottoman Karabela sword in the Imperial Armoury in Prague which has the four dots mark in addition to three dots marks in various constellations. The blade seems European but the four dots mark (near the half moon mark) might have been added later?

fernando · 22nd January 2020, 12:10 PM

Some Belluno area marks, by member AndreaFeraro89:

.

AndreaFeraro89 · 23rd January 2020, 07:46 PM

More Belunese area marks!
From Catalogue of the Doge Palace armoury by Franzoi

Enjoy!

dralin23 · 24th January 2020, 08:19 AM

Hi there,
i found some days ago an intresting indian Patasword with an narrow european Blade. at both sides from these blade are tradestamps or makersmarks without an name. have someone an idea from where these blade comes or in with time these blade was made?
unusual for me is that it is an narrow blade , only 25 mm wide.
i never saw before such an narrow blade in an pata sword. but i think that it is an old marriage and only an idiot did sharpened the edges with an grindling machine. i think that the blade wasn´t changed in its shape.
i´m curious about your opinions!

dralin23 · 24th January 2020, 08:51 AM

here are some pictures from an other pata sword ..,
these blade is marked with an running wolve and some letters.
i wonder how was these letters read? are these letters only symbols, or religius characters?
also intresting is if the running wolve was in an wrong direction stitched?
i asked in the solingen sword museum in the hope that they could tell me something more about the history from these blade but i received only a short answer that it is an solingen blade from the 17.th.ct. they couldn´t tell me something over the sinn from these letters.
have someone an better idea?
i don´t believe that it is an indian blade with wrong marks, but the indian swordmaking history is full of surprices.

fernando · 24th January 2020, 11:49 AM

The marks on your blade are one of the various misspelled initials of "In Nomine Domini" and would mean " In the name of the Lord (God)", an ancient Catholic expression; actually the title of a Papal Bull in the year 1050. You often find this in European blades; a subject also often discussed here in the forum-

dralin23 · 24th January 2020, 03:30 PM

hello fernando,
thank you for these information!
I also thought it that way when I read the letters on the blade. but if i read this combination of letters like this then the running wolf would have been hit the wrong way round in the blade. so he would be lying on his back. the other way around, the letters would make no sense. the running wolf also looks authentically real to me and not like it was hit afterwards. we can only speculate about why and why.

Victrix · 24th January 2020, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

hello fernando,
thank you for these information!
I also thought it that way when I read the letters on the blade. but if i read this combination of letters like this then the running wolf would have been hit the wrong way round in the blade. so he would be lying on his back. the other way around, the letters would make no sense. the running wolf also looks authentically real to me and not like it was hit afterwards. we can only speculate about why and why.

Supposedly when the blade smiths of Solingen put the wolf of Passau on the blades, they put them upside down compared to any text. So the wolf mark on your blade shows it’s made in Solingen. It’s beautiful.

dralin23 · 24th January 2020, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Supposedly when the blade smiths of Solingen put the wolf of Passau on the blades, they put them upside down compared to any text. So the wolf mark on your blade shows it’s made in Solingen. It’s beautiful.

hi,
this is new for me and very intresting!!
where you have read it?

Victrix · 24th January 2020, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dralin23

hi,
this is new for me and very intresting!!
where you have read it?

Can’t remember exactly. Wagner’s Cut and Thrust Weapons? Or Oakeshott?

dralin23 · 24th January 2020, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Can’t remember exactly. Wagner’s Cut and Thrust Weapons? Or Oakeshott?

thank you for these information!!
intrestig to hear this, I wonder why I couldn't get such important information when I asked for it in the sword museum in Solingen.

19th October 2017, 05:08 PM	#271
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Old 21st December 2016, 12:25 PM #300 Posted by: Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Bravo !!!This thread is astounding...and has just gone through 100 thousand viewings... . Last edited by fernando; 20th October 2017 at 06:07 PM.

24th January 2018, 10:20 PM	#272
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Marks on 18thC Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks. Attached Images

25th January 2018, 10:22 PM	#273
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I woldn't know about the four dots mark, but i guess this is more a symbol than properly a maker's mark. You could also find the four dots in early hand cannons; maybe just a concidence. . . Attached Images

26th January 2018, 07:30 PM	#277
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	These (three in all) examples are in principle Spanish. They were forged, not cast; those appeared much later. The four dots were surely the mark of the workshop but, as you know, very often early marks represented symbols, magic and so. I remember now who said these were 15th century marks. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...08&postcount=3 I would not associate these dots with the ones in your sword; after all, dots are a symbol easy to occur everywhere and in different periods, as also in more complex setups, like in edged weapons. . Attached Images

6th February 2018, 03:49 PM	#281
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Just one last note on the four dots symbol ... as once posted HERE . Attached Images

25th January 2018, 10:43 PM	#274
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Well Fernando, it might be a coincidence but the symbol looks rather similar. Do you know what the symbol on the cannon means and where these cannons typically originate from? I wonder if it could be a quality (iron content?), occult, religious, armoury, trade, or something else symbol?

26th January 2018, 04:16 PM	#275
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It would take someone with more knowledge to answer your questions; even the assumption that the (four) dots are not maker's marks but a period fashion symbol ... or both. ´ When i bought my cannons i have made some search and resumed that the four dots were typical marks of 15th century short cannons; something certainly not applicable to those in your sword. Whether there is a time line linking both, i ignore. In any case, why don't you show us the whole of your sword ?

26th January 2018, 04:30 PM	#276
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Fernando, I presented the sword in a separate thread previously. See: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528 I thought I would follow up on the four dots mark in this thread dealing specifically with marks, and see if someone recognized them. Are your [small] cannons from a particular geographic location? Could they be the mark of a foundry producing iron? Perhaps the cannons were cast at this foundry and then marked accordingly?

26th January 2018, 08:31 PM	#278
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	I think the three dots with sickle marks tend to be associated with Northern Italy and may represent the Holy Trinity or some say, even grapes. Maybe the four dots represent some kind of Gothic quatrefoil/kleeblatt which in turn may represent a cross or the four gospels in the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John). It may just be a kind of superstitious good luck sign or blessing. I was just wondering because because it seemed to replace the ”Pottenstein” engraved example in Wagner’s book.

26th January 2018, 11:07 PM	#279
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Victrix, Please show the entire sword and separately the handle. There seems to be a twist that pushes me toward Georgian Khmali. I may be wrong, but need better pics.

27th January 2018, 12:24 AM	#280
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Ariel, I may have expressed myself in a clumsy way. Only the first sword is mine. It was presented in a previous thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23528 I found the picture of the second sword in the forum elsewhere and posted it only for comparison to show the gurda marks. My question is if anyone is familiar with the four dots mark shown on the sabre in the first picture.

6th February 2018, 07:58 PM	#282
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Yes there is that mark again. Many thanks, Fernando. Interesting. Until I’m enlightened further I’m inclined to believe that the mark is either religious (cross symbol) or something marking good iron/steel. Or could be both: a foundry mark by a religious smith!

6th March 2018, 06:56 PM	#285
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Edge tool or weapon? Hi I joined this forum some years ago, but not been active recently as I had lost track of things when my old computer crashed. My interest is edge tools, primarily the billhook, but also axes and sickles... Many edge tool makers also made weapons, and vice versa - the Klingenthal Royal Armoury works in Alsace became known as Coulaux et Cie, taillandiers (edge tool makers).. Thus there may well be a great overlap in makers marks - tools are way undervalued as historical artifacts, and many agricultural tools are mis-sold as weapons - often by reputable dealers who should know better... The number of battle axes and beheading axes that are just specialist tools, is beyond belief... There is an excellent Wiki site showing many of the touch marks used by Austrian scythe smiths, and which probably includes Styria/Slovenia... https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_...C3%96sterreich Below Are some of the marks used by Austrian smiths, found on axes etc.. Also the main reason for getting my account here active once more - I have just bought a Polish hewing axe, with a sword shaped touch mark that I recognise, but cannot remember - can anyone identify it for me??? Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 6th March 2018 at 07:08 PM.

6th March 2018, 07:33 PM	#286
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Chisel makers This German site has stamps of edge tool makers who made wood chisels - they would have made other tools, and some may have also made weapons... http://alte-beitel.de/index.php/warenzeichen and thus: Franz Damisch, Ybbsitz (Austria) Attached Images Last edited by Billman; 6th March 2018 at 07:51 PM.

6th March 2018, 07:52 PM	#287
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	Blacksmith's mark (Blade mark) Styria Austria can be found on axes and Halbart were used until the 19th century http://www.michaelblank.at/collection-of-edgded-media/ sorry for my bad english

11th March 2018, 09:21 PM	#288
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 713	Many thanks for posting those blacksmiths’ marks? Does anyone have a list of sword/bladesmiths’ marks from Styria?

12th March 2018, 02:15 PM	#289
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Could they have some publication covering marks in the Graz Museum ? https://www.museum-joanneum.at/

22nd January 2020, 12:10 PM	#291
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Belluno area marks ... Some Belluno area marks, by member AndreaFeraro89: . Attached Images

23rd January 2020, 07:46 PM	#292
AndreaFeraro89 Member Join Date: Jan 2020 Posts: 13	More Belunese area marks! From Catalogue of the Doge Palace armoury by Franzoi Enjoy! Attached Images

24th January 2020, 08:19 AM	#293
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	An Patasword with an European Rapierblade? Hi there, i found some days ago an intresting indian Patasword with an narrow european Blade. at both sides from these blade are tradestamps or makersmarks without an name. have someone an idea from where these blade comes or in with time these blade was made? unusual for me is that it is an narrow blade , only 25 mm wide. i never saw before such an narrow blade in an pata sword. but i think that it is an old marriage and only an idiot did sharpened the edges with an grindling machine. i think that the blade wasn´t changed in its shape. i´m curious about your opinions! Attached Images

24th January 2020, 08:51 AM	#294
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	an other pata sword with an marked Blade here are some pictures from an other pata sword .., these blade is marked with an running wolve and some letters. i wonder how was these letters read? are these letters only symbols, or religius characters? also intresting is if the running wolve was in an wrong direction stitched? i asked in the solingen sword museum in the hope that they could tell me something more about the history from these blade but i received only a short answer that it is an solingen blade from the 17.th.ct. they couldn´t tell me something over the sinn from these letters. have someone an better idea? i don´t believe that it is an indian blade with wrong marks, but the indian swordmaking history is full of surprices. Attached Images

24th January 2020, 11:49 AM	#295
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The marks on your blade are one of the various misspelled initials of "In Nomine Domini" and would mean " In the name of the Lord (God)", an ancient Catholic expression; actually the title of a Papal Bull in the year 1050. You often find this in European blades; a subject also often discussed here in the forum-

24th January 2020, 03:30 PM	#296
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 194	hello fernando, thank you for these information! I also thought it that way when I read the letters on the blade. but if i read this combination of letters like this then the running wolf would have been hit the wrong way round in the blade. so he would be lying on his back. the other way around, the letters would make no sense. the running wolf also looks authentically real to me and not like it was hit afterwards. we can only speculate about why and why. Attached Images