Mystery solved and started!

[M ELEY]

Here's the site for the Jaeger Korps re-in actors. Again, I understand the mention of hirschfanger brings up a generic image of the many types of hunting implements, as shown on the site. I still can't get past, however, Harold Peterson's very descriptive narrative and image. You will also note that the swords on this site are for reference only, as some are not German, some are 19th century, etc. Adding to this confusion is the fact that the Jagers were around all the way up through the 20th century! Obviously, uniforms and accouterments would change over time. I know I sound like I'm fighting the possibility that this isn't a jaeger sword. I'm really not as I win either way (if not a jaeger, I can continue to classify it as a brass hilted hanger cum cutlass. If it is the sword used by the elite group, that that is fine too). I may never find out what the markings are or even if this piece saw action during the Rev War, but I just hope I can solve the fundamental question of is it or isn't it!



http://www.jaegerkorps.org/blankwaffen.html :

[Victrix]

It would make sense for Jägers to carry hirschfängers, or hunting swords, as they were often recruited from hunters. But the source which claims they carried hirschfängers seems dubious. Perhaps the author just felt like popping in a German word? The best way would be to look for contemporary graphic illustrations of Hessian Jägers to form a view of how they were armed. Not sure they are to be viewed as ”elite” though. In those days the elite were the guards regiments propped full with aristocracy and embellished with glamorous uniforms and equipment. The Jägers were probably perceived as rather less glamorous at that time. The sword you showed us looks lika an infantry hanger rather than a hirschfänger. Could it not have been used by the Hessian grenadier regiments (which were probably regarded as more exclusive at that time)?

[M ELEY]

Excellent points, Victrix. I will try and start researching contemporary paintings for more information. You also bring up a good point concerning the usage of the word hirschfanger. At that time, it was a hanger, plain and simple, not the horn gripped, saw back types we're used to seeing after the close of the 18th century. Perhaps Peterson did indeed draw and describe another hanger type carried by grenadiers or a similar branch of Hessians. I find it too hard to believe, however, that he arbitrarily made up this pattern as being German or not somehow affiliated with the Hessian troops.

[M ELEY]

Fernando, forgot to thank you for posting those pics of the regiment/rac marks. I am also of the opinion that the R or RX for that matter, stands for regiment once we ruled out (in the original thread) that it was for 'rack number' (ruled out by the fact that the German word for rack is 'Gestell' ), whereas 'regiment' is the same in German and thus starts with the leter 'R'.

I finally went back to "Arm& Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783" to check Peterson's footnotes. The one he lists for the jaeger sword is a mouth full-

"Oberleutnant Deiss, "Blank-und Schutzaffen Preussens von 18 Jahrhundred ab" Zeitschrift fur Historische Wafenkunde, Band V (1909-11), 324-330. Notes compiled by Col Harry Larter from specimens in German musems and he paintings of Richard and Herbet Knoetel, Menzel, ad C. Rochling."

Does anyone recognize any of these sources?

Here's a contemporary pic of jagers, with typically nearly out of shot pics! Note the straight sword blades and rectangular knucklebows

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/af/fc/46/a...98e2ca7349.jpg

And another straight sword, coveed by cloak and not sure if contemporary-

http://www.jaegerkorps.org/Pictures/jagercaptain.jpg

[M ELEY]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../Knoe10_02.jpg

Another possibly from a contemporary source-

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Fernando, forgot to thank you for posting those pics of the regiment/rac marks. I am also of the opinion that the R or RX for that matter, stands for regiment once we ruled out (in the original thread) that it was for 'rack number' (ruled out by the fact that the German word for rack is 'Gestell' ), whereas 'regiment' is the same in German and thus starts with the leter 'R'.

I finally went back to "Arm& Armor in Colonial America 1526-1783" to check Peterson's footnotes. The one he lists for the jaeger sword is a mouth full-

"Oberleutnant Deiss, "Blank-und Schutzaffen Preussens von 18 Jahrhundred ab" Zeitschrift fur Historische Wafenkunde, Band V (1909-11), 324-330. Notes compiled by Col Harry Larter from specimens in German musems and he paintings of Richard and Herbet Knoetel, Menzel, ad C. Rochling."

Does anyone recognize any of these sources?

Here's a contemporary pic of jagers, with typically nearly out of shot pics! Note the straight sword blades and rectangular knucklebows

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/af/fc/46/a...98e2ca7349.jpg

And another straight sword, coveed by cloak and not sure if contemporary-

http://www.jaegerkorps.org/Pictures/jagercaptain.jpg

The contemporary picture is very interesting. It seems to indicate that officers were armed with epees, mounted Jäger (wearing riding boots) were armed with hussar sabres, and infantry sharpshooters were armed with plain looking hangers. Whether these hangers can be termed hirschfänger is a technical point but seems to have led to confusion in the past.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

The contemporary picture is very interesting. It seems to indicate that officers were armed with epees, mounted Jäger (wearing riding boots) were armed with hussar sabres, and infantry sharpshooters were armed with plain looking hangers. Whether these hangers can be termed hirschfänger is a technical point but seems to have led to confusion in the past.

I was under the impression that hirschfängers (read hunting knives) were of unequivocal typology, but i am not the correct judge. I take it however as a striking detail, the absence of a knuckle guard in 'typical' examples. Mark's sword would then be a hanger.

[M ELEY]

Yeah. Fernando, I see your point. I'm giving up on the markings for now and hope to at least get a definitive as to whether this little booger is a jaeger hanger or not. More research needed-

Victrix, I moticed that as well. Of course, even the material I read from Peterson and Trioani indicated that there might be other patterns based on rank. Peterson called the pattern exactly resembling mine and described as such (plate 247 pic) as "a Jaeger enlisted man's sword", no use of 'saber', 'hanger' or 'hirschfanger'. I'm wondering if the hirschfanger might have become standard aster 1800? Most of the pics I've seen (granted, all modern), were of 19th c. hunting swords-

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I am also of the opinion that the R or RX for that matter, stands for regiment once we ruled out (in the original thread) that it was for 'rack number' (ruled out by the fact that the German word for rack is 'Gestell' ), whereas 'regiment' is the same in German and thus starts with the leter 'R'...

We both converge and diverge on this one, if i may, Captain . I may have not made my point clear in that, even considering that determined set of numbers may refer to a specific place where you store weapons (and other) which in english is called 'rack' (often a letter for the shelf and a couple digits for the row), you don't need to quote the term rack with an initial in the marks, as this is already presupposed, or implicit, so to say. Meaning that whether rack in German is written differently, such is not the issue; not to mention the difference in terminology, as Germans probably call such weapons storage implement with a different name. I think (not sure) that in Portuguese we call them 'armeiros' (from arms)... but certainly not a translation for rack.
Furthermore, even assuming that your hanger is of German origin, what about the markings having being made later in the country (and force) that imported it ? This is why i have asked you before where (country) did you get it from.