Warangka for identification

A. G. Maisey · 28th February 2018, 08:24 PM

I'm pretty much with David on this keris. In short:- I do not know with any certainty where it originated.

Comments on component parts:-

Hilt:- East Jawa/ Madura
Mendak:- East Jawa/Madura
Gambar:- not the work of a tukang wrongko --- incorrect grain orientation; stylistically it can be associated with Tegal and with Lombok. Absolutely no idea where it was made.
Silver (?) work on scabbard is outside keris tradition but stylistically perhaps Sumatera or Peninsula
Blade is stylistically Bali.

In respect of the pattern of blade corrosion.

This raises no questions at all with me. The edges of the blade are steel, where this steel is hardened the corrosion pattern will accelerate, what I believe I can see in these edges is a typical pattern.

The body of the blade is iron + nickel, this corrodes much more slowly than heat treated steel, I expect to see a different and much milder corrosion pattern in these areas.

Keris blades are normally only heat treated for a part of the way up the blade, this is a design feature used to prevent breakage, the keris is used to thrust, the cut is secondary, so only the tip of the blade needs to be hardened. In a Javanese blade the furthest up the blade the hardening goes is the tip of the sogokan, or its equivalent position where there is no sogokan; in many areas only the first couple of inches of the blade are hardened.

The blade only I think could originate from Klungkung, Kusamba, pre-puputan.

My guess, I emphasise "guess", is that this is a dealer's montage, very possibly put together in Singapore.

David · 28th February 2018, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In respect of the pattern of blade corrosion.

This raises no questions at all with me. The edges of the blade are steel, where this steel is hardened the corrosion pattern will accelerate, what I believe I can see in these edges is a typical pattern.

The body of the blade is iron + nickel, this corrodes much more slowly than heat treated steel, I expect to see a different and much milder corrosion pattern in these areas.

Keris blades are normally only heat treated for a part of the way up the blade, this is a design feature used to prevent breakage, the keris is used to thrust, the cut is secondary, so only the tip of the blade needs to be hardened. In a Javanese blade the furthest up the blade the hardening goes is the tip of the sogokan, or its equivalent position where there is no sogokan; in many areas only the first couple of inches of the blade are hardened.

The blade only I think could originate from Klungkung, Kusamba, pre-puputan.

My guess, I emphasise "guess", is that this is a dealer's montage, very possibly put together in Singapore.

Thanks for your input on the blade. I could not be as sure as you, but it did raise some red flags for me spurring my comment.
I am still confused by the diagonally incised line near the front of the gonjo. Not a feature i can say i have seen on Bali keris. Do you have some experience with seeing this feature before?

A. G. Maisey · 28th February 2018, 09:44 PM

David, I am very certain about my comments on corrosion patterns, but re the line on the gonjo I cannot comment. For me, what places this as a pre-puputan, probably Klungkung blade is the fact that the keris made by the ancestors of Empu Mangku Pande Made Wija were known for nearly always having pudak setegal, whilst in other Bali blades it is a seldom seen feature. Also in blades of his line the kembang kacang was known for complete (robyong) detail.

David · 28th February 2018, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, I am very certain about my comments on corrosion patterns, but re the line on the gonjo I cannot comment. For me, what places this as a pre-puputan, probably Klungkung blade is the fact that the keris made by the ancestors of Empu Mangku Pande Made Wija were known for nearly always having pudak setegal, whilst in other Bali blades it is a seldom seen feature. Also in blades of his line the kembang kacang was known for complete (robyong) detail.

Thanks Alan. Useful information about the pedal setegal. I have yet to receive a Bali keris with that particular feature so now when i do i'll have a better idea of its particular origins.

drdavid · 1st March 2018, 05:04 AM

David/Alan
pudak/pedal setegal is not a name/feature I am familiar with, could you indicate what it is please.
thanks
DrD

A. G. Maisey · 1st March 2018, 06:06 AM

It is the little spiky things that stick out from the blade edge level with about halfway up the sogokan.

This sketch shows them clearly:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html

In the sketch they come to the top of the sogokan.

Arjuna · 1st March 2018, 09:41 AM

Thank you for your comments and the interesting lesson about the hardening of the blades!

Just one more question:
I was attracted by the Pudak sategal blade and could not make sense of the sheat. Would you leaf it as the couriosity it is or give the blade a Bali sarong? (I have a spare Cecekahan and a Godoan sheat ...)

28th February 2018, 08:24 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I'm pretty much with David on this keris. In short:- I do not know with any certainty where it originated. Comments on component parts:- Hilt:- East Jawa/ Madura Mendak:- East Jawa/Madura Gambar:- not the work of a tukang wrongko --- incorrect grain orientation; stylistically it can be associated with Tegal and with Lombok. Absolutely no idea where it was made. Silver (?) work on scabbard is outside keris tradition but stylistically perhaps Sumatera or Peninsula Blade is stylistically Bali. In respect of the pattern of blade corrosion. This raises no questions at all with me. The edges of the blade are steel, where this steel is hardened the corrosion pattern will accelerate, what I believe I can see in these edges is a typical pattern. The body of the blade is iron + nickel, this corrodes much more slowly than heat treated steel, I expect to see a different and much milder corrosion pattern in these areas. Keris blades are normally only heat treated for a part of the way up the blade, this is a design feature used to prevent breakage, the keris is used to thrust, the cut is secondary, so only the tip of the blade needs to be hardened. In a Javanese blade the furthest up the blade the hardening goes is the tip of the sogokan, or its equivalent position where there is no sogokan; in many areas only the first couple of inches of the blade are hardened. The blade only I think could originate from Klungkung, Kusamba, pre-puputan. My guess, I emphasise "guess", is that this is a dealer's montage, very possibly put together in Singapore.

28th February 2018, 09:44 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, I am very certain about my comments on corrosion patterns, but re the line on the gonjo I cannot comment. For me, what places this as a pre-puputan, probably Klungkung blade is the fact that the keris made by the ancestors of Empu Mangku Pande Made Wija were known for nearly always having pudak setegal, whilst in other Bali blades it is a seldom seen feature. Also in blades of his line the kembang kacang was known for complete (robyong) detail.

1st March 2018, 05:04 AM	#5
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	David/Alan pudak/pedal setegal is not a name/feature I am familiar with, could you indicate what it is please. thanks DrD

1st March 2018, 06:06 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	It is the little spiky things that stick out from the blade edge level with about halfway up the sogokan. This sketch shows them clearly:- http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html In the sketch they come to the top of the sogokan.

1st March 2018, 09:41 AM	#7
Arjuna Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Vienna Posts: 17	Thank you for your comments and the interesting lesson about the hardening of the blades! Just one more question: I was attracted by the Pudak sategal blade and could not make sense of the sheat. Would you leaf it as the couriosity it is or give the blade a Bali sarong? (I have a spare Cecekahan and a Godoan sheat ...)