help identifying writing system

bj211 · 27th March 2006, 09:35 PM

Hi Ham…
What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ?
any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!!
maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?!

ham · 28th March 2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj211

Hi Ham…
What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ?
any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!!
maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?!

Salaam alaikum ya BJ,

Ahlan w'sahlan fil Sword Forum. Anta 'al ustadh al lughat al'arbiyya, ana talib faqat. Min 'aina anta ya akhi?
We are indeed fortunate to have such a colleague, welcome.
The 20th century date and poor calligraphy are consistent, not as an indication of manufacture, simply of the period of embellishment-- likely in the Tunis arms bazaar.

Ham

bj211 · 28th March 2006, 06:16 AM

Wa Alaikum Al Salam ya Ham

Thank you very much for the kind and worm welcome. And for a student, your Arabic language knowledge is superb.

I’m from a small country in the Arab world, Kuwait. My passion for Arab & Islamic art comes from the fact that I belong to the “ society of the Dar Athar Alislamia “

Min 'aina anta ya sadeeqi?

fernando · 28th March 2006, 05:56 PM

Thank you BJ and Ham
This is what i got after cleaning ( and varnishing ) the pistol.
The year digit apparently looks like an arabic 5 and not a 9, but what do i know?
Can you now have a more clear reading of the inscription, namely the "Tuinisia" word ?
Thanks
fernando

ham · 28th March 2006, 06:28 PM

Fernando,

Yes, MADE IN TUNIS is quite clear now, you've done a very nice job bringing out the silverwork. The second digit from the left is, strictly speaking, a "5"
but with the addition of a short tail on the right it would be a "9" much like our own. Now, seeing it clean and legible, I suspect the craftsman inlaid the numerals to reflect an earlier date, yet one which could still be read as the actual one contextually. These inscriptions are really a holistic process-- the sum of the whole truly is greater than its parts. Neither the use of the term "san'at" ("crafted") nor the phrase in which it appears, "Crafted In Tunis" are at all characteristic of period maker's inscriptions. This refelcts a great deal of Western influence, in my opinion (i.e. Made in Paris or Made in Rome.)
The pistol certainly is 19th century. As we have discussed, it is the silverwork which is more recent.

BJ akhi,
Shuf, andek email

Ham

fernando · 29th March 2006, 05:51 PM

أنا شكرًا جدًّا

fernando · 1st April 2006, 01:03 PM

What puzzles me is that the interpretation of the numbers seem to different from what was quoted here. BJ description of number 3 is seen in several sources as being number 2. I was recently visited by my Moroccan working coleagues, and they also say that the date in the inscription is 1522. Could it be that Kwait arabic variable has as a different graphism for the numbers ?Also to consider that in fact this type of digits is what Arabs call "indian numbers", as in fact they originate from Hindu numbers. In a more ortodox arabic they write numbers with wordings, not figures.

Yannis · 1st April 2006, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj211

“ society of the Dar Athar Alislamia “

House of ... Islam?

bj211 · 2nd April 2006, 05:40 PM

house of islamic archaeology

27th March 2006, 09:35 PM	#1
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	any body! Hi Ham… What do you think? Can you confirm any of this ? any corrections? i'm sure Tunisia was not ment to be there!! maybe a similar sounding Ottman region that you know of?! Attached Images

28th March 2006, 05:56 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you BJ and Ham This is what i got after cleaning ( and varnishing ) the pistol. The year digit apparently looks like an arabic 5 and not a 9, but what do i know? Can you now have a more clear reading of the inscription, namely the "Tuinisia" word ? Thanks fernando Attached Images

28th March 2006, 06:28 PM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Fernando, Yes, MADE IN TUNIS is quite clear now, you've done a very nice job bringing out the silverwork. The second digit from the left is, strictly speaking, a "5" but with the addition of a short tail on the right it would be a "9" much like our own. Now, seeing it clean and legible, I suspect the craftsman inlaid the numerals to reflect an earlier date, yet one which could still be read as the actual one contextually. These inscriptions are really a holistic process-- the sum of the whole truly is greater than its parts. Neither the use of the term "san'at" ("crafted") nor the phrase in which it appears, "Crafted In Tunis" are at all characteristic of period maker's inscriptions. This refelcts a great deal of Western influence, in my opinion (i.e. Made in Paris or Made in Rome.) The pistol certainly is 19th century. As we have discussed, it is the silverwork which is more recent. BJ akhi, Shuf, andek email Ham Last edited by ham; 29th March 2006 at 07:56 AM.

1st April 2006, 01:03 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	What puzzles me is that the interpretation of the numbers seem to different from what was quoted here. BJ description of number 3 is seen in several sources as being number 2. I was recently visited by my Moroccan working coleagues, and they also say that the date in the inscription is 1522. Could it be that Kwait arabic variable has as a different graphism for the numbers ?Also to consider that in fact this type of digits is what Arabs call "indian numbers", as in fact they originate from Hindu numbers. In a more ortodox arabic they write numbers with wordings, not figures. Attached Images

28th March 2006, 06:16 AM	#3
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	Wa Alaikum Al Salam ya Ham Thank you very much for the kind and worm welcome. And for a student, your Arabic language knowledge is superb. I’m from a small country in the Arab world, Kuwait. My passion for Arab & Islamic art comes from the fact that I belong to the “ society of the Dar Athar Alislamia “ Min 'aina anta ya sadeeqi?

29th March 2006, 05:51 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	أنا شكرًا جدًّا

2nd April 2006, 05:40 PM	#9
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	house of islamic archaeology