The Mystery of El Cid's Swords Tizona and Colada

Reventlov · 7th February 2018, 02:45 PM

I am resurrecting this excellent thread for my own purposes... I am pleased to announce that an article of mine on the swords Tizona and Colada has been published in the most recent (December) issue of Medieval Warfare magazine. While much of it may not be new information, I think I have at least touched on a few points that are not well known.

https://www.academia.edu/35847672/Th...act_and_legend

The space and format of the magazine are much too limited to go into much detail so a lot of my background research could not possibly be included. During my research I found again and again that many supposedly scholarly sources repeated claims without proper citation, or claims that are un-sourced or even contradicted by original sources. I am currently working on compiling my notes into a "proper" literature review, but this has become a much larger project than I first expected... In the meantime, I hope the article may provide some fuel for discussion!

Happy reading,
Mark

fernando · 7th February 2018, 03:47 PM

Excelent material, Mark. Already downloaded to my library. Thank you so much for sharing.

Jens Nordlunde · 11th February 2018, 06:18 PM

In post 12 Jim mentions Ogier, or Oddgeir as it is written in the old Nors prosa, but in moderne Danish he is called Holger Danske, as Jim correctly writes.
He was said to be a Danish prince doing service in France around 1220.
He is now sitting in the catacombs of Elsinor - waiting. When Denmark is in need he will wake up, and start fighting.

Philip · 12th February 2018, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

He is now sitting in the catacombs of Elsinor - waiting. When Denmark is in need he will wake up, and start fighting.

So he's Denmark's counterpart to Friedrich Barbarossa? Or perhaps to Portugal's King Sebastião, whom it is believed did not actually die on the battlefield fighting the Moors in Morocco in 1578, but rather took refuge in a hidden place and fell into a deep slumber from which he shall surely wake when his country needs him again...

fernando · 12th February 2018, 06:40 PM

Interesting that you mention King Dom Sebastião, Philip, as he also played a decisive role in an episode of mystic swords, as per topic.
Having required that tombs of earlier Kings be opened to take their swords as protection amulets to the disastrous battle of Alcacer Quibir (al Quasr al-kibr) in 1578, one sword he carried was that of the first King of Portugal Dom Afonso Hemriques (12th century) resulting that, the only sword brought back from the battle, probably not offloaded from the ship, was decided to be that of Afonso Henriques, whereas its typology clearly defines it as being three centuries posterior, probably from another King, Dom Afonso V ( 15th century). This swap being kept as a true fact during so long time, the authorities are now reluctant to admit the error and thus the myth created around this sword, as that of the monarch that built up Portugal nationality.

.

Philip · 12th February 2018, 09:33 PM

Obrigado, Nando, pelas fotos! This is all news to me -- I am familiar with the details of this tragic expedition but the books I read do not mention the "talismanic" role of royal swords! Where is this Dom Afonso V (?) sword now kept and displayed? It's a pity that the rest of the royal weapons that Dom Sebastião extracted from the tombs were lost on the campaign. As collectors, we can only hope that they are "sleeping" and forgotten in some Moroccan palace or fortress armory somewhere, rather like the ill-fated King himself (wherever he may be).

fernando · 13th February 2018, 12:11 PM

The original sword of Dom Afonso Henriques resided by his tomb in the church of Santa Cruz in Coimbra, founded in 1181 with the support of this King and his successor Dom Sancho I, whose tomb is also kept in there.
In 1834 with the extinction of religious orders, the sword was transferred to Oporto, to be kept in the Museum Soares dos Reis. In it was againg moved in 1987, this time to the Oporto Military Museum, where it stays, exhibited inside a glass case.
It is written by period chronicler Friar Nicolau de Santa Maria, canon in the same church that, Dom Sebastião had visited both tombs in October 1570 and admired Afonso Henriques sword; kissing it, he said to his entourage: Good times when they fought with so short swords ! This is the sword that liberated the whole Portugal from the cruel yoke of the Moors, always a winner, and therefore worthy to be kept with all veneration. Then he gave it back to the church Prior, saying: Keep it father, as one day i shall resource to it against the Moors in Africa.
There is also documental evidence that Dom Sebastião wrote a letter to the Head Prior eight years after such visit, in 14th March 1578, requesting the sword (and shield) for the African incursion, with comitment to return it after winning the battle.
What actually lacks written evidence, after carefuly searching the church archives, is whether the actual sword was in fact returned to the temple, from which speculation exists that the one later present might have began to another (later) King, judging by its typology.
However still today the Museum tag defines it as the sword of Dom Afonso Henriques.

11th February 2018, 06:18 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In post 12 Jim mentions Ogier, or Oddgeir as it is written in the old Nors prosa, but in moderne Danish he is called Holger Danske, as Jim correctly writes. He was said to be a Danish prince doing service in France around 1220. He is now sitting in the catacombs of Elsinor - waiting. When Denmark is in need he will wake up, and start fighting. Attached Images

12th February 2018, 06:40 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Interesting that you mention King Dom Sebastião, Philip, as he also played a decisive role in an episode of mystic swords, as per topic. Having required that tombs of earlier Kings be opened to take their swords as protection amulets to the disastrous battle of Alcacer Quibir (al Quasr al-kibr) in 1578, one sword he carried was that of the first King of Portugal Dom Afonso Hemriques (12th century) resulting that, the only sword brought back from the battle, probably not offloaded from the ship, was decided to be that of Afonso Henriques, whereas its typology clearly defines it as being three centuries posterior, probably from another King, Dom Afonso V ( 15th century). This swap being kept as a true fact during so long time, the authorities are now reluctant to admit the error and thus the myth created around this sword, as that of the monarch that built up Portugal nationality. . Attached Images

7th February 2018, 02:45 PM	#1
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 138	I am resurrecting this excellent thread for my own purposes... I am pleased to announce that an article of mine on the swords Tizona and Colada has been published in the most recent (December) issue of Medieval Warfare magazine. While much of it may not be new information, I think I have at least touched on a few points that are not well known. https://www.academia.edu/35847672/Th...act_and_legend The space and format of the magazine are much too limited to go into much detail so a lot of my background research could not possibly be included. During my research I found again and again that many supposedly scholarly sources repeated claims without proper citation, or claims that are un-sourced or even contradicted by original sources. I am currently working on compiling my notes into a "proper" literature review, but this has become a much larger project than I first expected... In the meantime, I hope the article may provide some fuel for discussion! Happy reading, Mark

7th February 2018, 03:47 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Excelent material, Mark. Already downloaded to my library. Thank you so much for sharing.

12th February 2018, 09:33 PM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Obrigado, Nando, pelas fotos! This is all news to me -- I am familiar with the details of this tragic expedition but the books I read do not mention the "talismanic" role of royal swords! Where is this Dom Afonso V (?) sword now kept and displayed? It's a pity that the rest of the royal weapons that Dom Sebastião extracted from the tombs were lost on the campaign. As collectors, we can only hope that they are "sleeping" and forgotten in some Moroccan palace or fortress armory somewhere, rather like the ill-fated King himself (wherever he may be).

13th February 2018, 12:11 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The original sword of Dom Afonso Henriques resided by his tomb in the church of Santa Cruz in Coimbra, founded in 1181 with the support of this King and his successor Dom Sancho I, whose tomb is also kept in there. In 1834 with the extinction of religious orders, the sword was transferred to Oporto, to be kept in the Museum Soares dos Reis. In it was againg moved in 1987, this time to the Oporto Military Museum, where it stays, exhibited inside a glass case. It is written by period chronicler Friar Nicolau de Santa Maria, canon in the same church that, Dom Sebastião had visited both tombs in October 1570 and admired Afonso Henriques sword; kissing it, he said to his entourage: Good times when they fought with so short swords ! This is the sword that liberated the whole Portugal from the cruel yoke of the Moors, always a winner, and therefore worthy to be kept with all veneration. Then he gave it back to the church Prior, saying: Keep it father, as one day i shall resource to it against the Moors in Africa. There is also documental evidence that Dom Sebastião wrote a letter to the Head Prior eight years after such visit, in 14th March 1578, requesting the sword (and shield) for the African incursion, with comitment to return it after winning the battle. What actually lacks written evidence, after carefuly searching the church archives, is whether the actual sword was in fact returned to the temple, from which speculation exists that the one later present might have began to another (later) King, judging by its typology. However still today the Museum tag defines it as the sword of Dom Afonso Henriques.