The Secret Of The Persian Shamshir

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by kai

For pre-Qajar shamshir, I thumbed through Manouchehr's "Arms and Armor from Iran" and the COP seems to center at about 11 inches (from sword tip) within a fairly narrow range of approx. +/- 1 inch (regardless of curvature and not correcting for differences in total sword length).

I can't tell for sure from the description whether he gives the centre of percussion (i.e., the centre of percussion as defined by all non-sword people) or the closest-to-the-tip node of vibration (which is often called the COP by sword people).

Footnote 51, pg 138:
COP (center of percussion) is the point where the saber has its highest cutting power. To measure this point, one holds the grip of the sword or saber in his right hand. Then, a strike is given by the palm of the left hand to the right hand, which is holding the saber. The blade needs to be carefully watched. The COP is the center or place of the blade that has the least vibration.

The key to what is actually measured is that last word, "vibration". I think the measurement is a measurement of the node of vibration, but I'm not certain.

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

I can't tell for sure from the description whether he gives the centre of percussion (i.e., the centre of percussion as defined by all non-sword people) or the closest-to-the-tip node of vibration (which is often called the COP by sword people).



The key to what is actually measured is that last word, "vibration". I think the measurement is a measurement of the node of vibration, but I'm not certain.

Sweet spot and center of percussion are terms from Baseball. I have serious doubts, that we can use such terms for describing swords. Because the specification is quite different.
At least a Baseball bat is no static device.

Also the point of balance means not much or nothing. For example the POB of the shamshir (1kg) is ~18 cm away from the guard. On my European rapier (1kg) the POB is ~5cm away from the guard. But the Shamshir is clearly mor agile and more flexible to use than the rapier. So what does the POB says?

Theory (!): In a two dimensional coordinate system we have two axes, the x and y-axis.
If we describe the POB we use the lengthwise axis, which is normally the x-axis. But the POB on the y -axis is also important! The POB should be as close to the cutting edge as possible! This leads to a more stable blow. Maybe this is one reason for the 38 fullers, next to a lower weight.

I found out for myself, that all modern technical terms are pretty useless to describe a sword. So I tried to avoid modern technical terms in my text.

Tons of technical descriptions are nothing compared to a real test blow.

I tried out the usability of many different sword types (normally without cutting tests), so I'm pretty experienced in this field. Nowadays I can hold a sword, make some blows in the air and I can say, what it is designed for (for example once I tried out a long Afghan Kyber knife/sword and it was clear within seconds that this is a cutting weapon, despite its sharp and long point. Later I found out, that this is absolutely true).

My concluison: Modern technical terms are between not ideal and useless to describe an ancient edged weapon.


Roland

[Norman McCormick]

[QUOTE=Roland_M]Sweet spot and center of percussion are terms from Baseball. I have serious doubts, that we can use such terms for describing swords. Because the specification is quite different.
At least a Baseball bat is no static device.


Hi Roland,
Centre of Percussion is a well known term when applied to swords. Many Victorian military swords are marked as such with a C and P clearly visible on the spine. I in fact have a Wilkinson Cavalry Officers sword, manufacture date 1877, with such markings.
Regards,
Norman.