What kind of knife is this ?

Alan62 · 25th March 2006, 08:12 PM

Forgive my ignorance but I know I have seen these types here before

Thanks for all your help

Emanuel · 25th March 2006, 08:44 PM

Hello,
This would be a Lombok pedang no? Are the marks on the blade etched or inlay?
Manolo

Alan62 · 25th March 2006, 08:56 PM

I am not sure if they are etched or inlay.They look as if they are on top of the blade as inlay maybe.
thanks for the help

not2sharp · 25th March 2006, 09:39 PM

The marks almost look as though they were welded onto the finished blade.

I wonder if this blade may have started life as a sword cane.

n2s

Battara · 25th March 2006, 10:23 PM

The last closeup picture suggests to me that the inscription is etched into the blade, or more accurately, the background is etched away from the inscription.

Rick · 26th March 2006, 01:03 AM

Hello Alan ,
This is an interesting Lombok or Sumatran {edit} pedang .

One gentle request ; would you please try to keep your images within the 800x600 pixel range so that we do not have to scroll across the screen to view them .
If you have any questions about this please feel free to ask .

Rick

bj211 · 26th March 2006, 01:39 AM

some translations that might help to id..

bj211 · 26th March 2006, 01:45 AM

some translations that might help to id..

Alan62 · 26th March 2006, 04:33 AM

Sorry Rick I will try to scale them down some. Thank you all for the information. Thank you Bj211 for the translation, It is very kind of you to translate in such an easy to understand way.

Andrew · 26th March 2006, 05:17 AM

That looks like acid-resist etching. The design (text) is drawn out in wax or some other acid-resistant material, and the remainder of the blade is washed or immersed in acid.

BluErf · 26th March 2006, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello,
This would be a Lombok pedang no? Are the marks on the blade etched or inlay?
Manolo

Hi Manolo,

Just a question -- is this a Lombok pedang because of the slender profile of the blade? Sumatra has a lot of klewangs with hilts like this (abstract makara), and blades of similar, although broader, forms.

Alan62 · 26th March 2006, 05:52 AM

It is odd how the spine of the blade runs down and then the end (that is usually kicked up on most knifes ) is kicked down away from the spine.
I thought I was holding it upside down at first and I have to be careful when I sheath it and make sure it is right side up.
Is this a common trait of this type of blade?

not2sharp · 26th March 2006, 06:44 AM

This is a shot in the dark; but, the blade on this one looks as though it may have once been part of a Norwegian bayonet. The blade on the model 1894 would have been around 367mm long, 19.5mm wide, and 5mm thick. It is hard to see due to the extensive acid damage, but there seems to be a machine made fuller running along the top of the blade which starts an inch in front of the guard and ends just before the hook (clip point). Originally the blade had a spear point with a sharpened spine. This one seems to have lost a short section of point, which was corrected by rounding the clip point all the way down to the main edge.

original model 1894 bayonet and rifle

see:
Kiesling vol 1#247, Janzen's pg 151-3 for sketches of the original bayonet.

n2s

Henk · 26th March 2006, 10:11 AM

This is a sumatran pedang. A very nice one with that inscription. I don't think that it was original a bayonet.

BluErf · 26th March 2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan62

It is odd how the spine of the blade runs down and then the end (that is usually kicked up on most knifes ) is kicked down away from the spine.
I thought I was holding it upside down at first and I have to be careful when I sheath it and make sure it is right side up.
Is this a common trait of this type of blade?

We see this sort of tip quite commonly in Sumatran and Javanese klewangs and goloks.

Here's my Acehnese pedang with the same tip. The only difference is that it is probably more than twice as broad.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

Here are some more examples, with different sheath and handle forms.

http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/oth...ricik_luwu.htm

http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/oth...a_dwiwarna.htm

http://www.geocities.com/keris4u/oth...ricik_luwu.htm

Alan62 · 26th March 2006, 03:01 PM

Thanks for the answers.
I also do not believe it was ever a bayonet(Nice rifle Not2Sharp)
If you look close at the details of the blade it seems to be layered metal.It is hard to see because of the "acid damage" and in the pics but up close in person I can see layering.
If I dipped a regular blade or bayonette into acid would it reveal layering?

Thanks again

Rick · 26th March 2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan62

Thanks for the answers.
I also do not believe it was ever a bayonet(Nice rifle Not2Sharp)
If you look close at the details of the blade it seems to be layered metal.It is hard to see because of the "acid damage" and in the pics but up close in person I can see layering.
If I dipped a regular blade or bayonette into acid would it reveal layering?

Thanks again

Most likely not IMO .

How long is this blade ?

Alan62 · 26th March 2006, 05:21 PM

The blade is 20.5 inches long and 3/4 of an inch wide at the Hilt and 1 and 1/8 inches wide at the end before the point turns down.The spine is 1/4 of an inch wide at the hilt and 1/8 at the end where the blade turns down to a point.
Thanks

Emanuel · 26th March 2006, 07:08 PM

Hello Bluerf and all,

I thought this sword was very similar to the one presented here http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/pedang_sab/ped04.htm and originating from Lombok. While the hilts seem to be very commonly used in Sumatra, these two examples also have very similar tips. In both cases it is finer/sharper than other examples and it is so down-curving that it almost forms a sort of hook. I have barely started studying Indonesian weapons, but these similarities caught my eye. Another question about the hilts would be who uses specific makara (with trunk) depictions and who uses other combinations of flora/fauna in similar manner? Could the specific details be used for identification or are they far too generic?

Regards,
Manolo

Emanuel · 26th March 2006, 10:05 PM

I see these have been discussed before http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang
Can it be said that the more figural the carving the farther it is from Islamic references/influences, and vice-versa? If so could a sort of scale be developed to identify the specific elements within the hilt forms and ascertain their probable origin?

VVV · 27th March 2006, 11:07 AM

My guess on this Pedang is also Sumatra.
The reason for this is that I have seen several Sumatran weapons with etched Arabic writing made in the same way as this - mostly Rencong and Sewar.
And so far none on the resembling Pedang from Lombok
Most of these etchings seems to have been done in the mid- and late 20th C.
Maybe the etching was done later on this Pedang to make it more according to the fashion of the day?
But the hilt seems a bit less detailed in the carvings than some of the oldest ones?

Michael

25th March 2006, 08:12 PM	#1
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	What kind of knife is this ? Forgive my ignorance but I know I have seen these types here before Thanks for all your help Last edited by Alan62; 25th March 2006 at 08:41 PM.

26th March 2006, 01:03 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hello Alan , This is an interesting Lombok or Sumatran {edit} pedang . One gentle request ; would you please try to keep your images within the 800x600 pixel range so that we do not have to scroll across the screen to view them . If you have any questions about this please feel free to ask . Rick Last edited by Rick; 26th March 2006 at 04:56 PM.

26th March 2006, 01:45 AM	#8
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	some translations that might help to id.. Attached Images

25th March 2006, 08:44 PM	#2
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, This would be a Lombok pedang no? Are the marks on the blade etched or inlay? Manolo

25th March 2006, 08:56 PM	#3
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	I am not sure if they are etched or inlay.They look as if they are on top of the blade as inlay maybe. thanks for the help

25th March 2006, 09:39 PM	#4
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	The marks almost look as though they were welded onto the finished blade. I wonder if this blade may have started life as a sword cane. n2s

25th March 2006, 10:23 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	The last closeup picture suggests to me that the inscription is etched into the blade, or more accurately, the background is etched away from the inscription.

26th March 2006, 01:39 AM	#7
bj211 Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 26	some translations that might help to id..

26th March 2006, 04:33 AM	#9
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Sorry Rick I will try to scale them down some. Thank you all for the information. Thank you Bj211 for the translation, It is very kind of you to translate in such an easy to understand way.

26th March 2006, 05:17 AM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	That looks like acid-resist etching. The design (text) is drawn out in wax or some other acid-resistant material, and the remainder of the blade is washed or immersed in acid.

26th March 2006, 05:52 AM	#12
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	It is odd how the spine of the blade runs down and then the end (that is usually kicked up on most knifes ) is kicked down away from the spine. I thought I was holding it upside down at first and I have to be careful when I sheath it and make sure it is right side up. Is this a common trait of this type of blade?

26th March 2006, 06:44 AM	#13
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	This is a shot in the dark; but, the blade on this one looks as though it may have once been part of a Norwegian bayonet. The blade on the model 1894 would have been around 367mm long, 19.5mm wide, and 5mm thick. It is hard to see due to the extensive acid damage, but there seems to be a machine made fuller running along the top of the blade which starts an inch in front of the guard and ends just before the hook (clip point). Originally the blade had a spear point with a sharpened spine. This one seems to have lost a short section of point, which was corrected by rounding the clip point all the way down to the main edge. original model 1894 bayonet and rifle see: Kiesling vol 1#247, Janzen's pg 151-3 for sketches of the original bayonet. n2s

26th March 2006, 10:11 AM	#14
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	This is a sumatran pedang. A very nice one with that inscription. I don't think that it was original a bayonet.

26th March 2006, 03:01 PM	#16
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	Thanks for the answers. I also do not believe it was ever a bayonet(Nice rifle Not2Sharp) If you look close at the details of the blade it seems to be layered metal.It is hard to see because of the "acid damage" and in the pics but up close in person I can see layering. If I dipped a regular blade or bayonette into acid would it reveal layering? Thanks again

26th March 2006, 05:21 PM	#18
Alan62 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 164	The blade is 20.5 inches long and 3/4 of an inch wide at the Hilt and 1 and 1/8 inches wide at the end before the point turns down.The spine is 1/4 of an inch wide at the hilt and 1/8 at the end where the blade turns down to a point. Thanks

26th March 2006, 07:08 PM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Bluerf and all, I thought this sword was very similar to the one presented here http://old.blades.free.fr/swords/pedang_sab/ped04.htm and originating from Lombok. While the hilts seem to be very commonly used in Sumatra, these two examples also have very similar tips. In both cases it is finer/sharper than other examples and it is so down-curving that it almost forms a sort of hook. I have barely started studying Indonesian weapons, but these similarities caught my eye. Another question about the hilts would be who uses specific makara (with trunk) depictions and who uses other combinations of flora/fauna in similar manner? Could the specific details be used for identification or are they far too generic? Regards, Manolo

26th March 2006, 10:05 PM	#20
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I see these have been discussed before http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=pedang Can it be said that the more figural the carving the farther it is from Islamic references/influences, and vice-versa? If so could a sort of scale be developed to identify the specific elements within the hilt forms and ascertain their probable origin?

27th March 2006, 11:07 AM	#21
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	My guess on this Pedang is also Sumatra. The reason for this is that I have seen several Sumatran weapons with etched Arabic writing made in the same way as this - mostly Rencong and Sewar. And so far none on the resembling Pedang from Lombok Most of these etchings seems to have been done in the mid- and late 20th C. Maybe the etching was done later on this Pedang to make it more according to the fashion of the day? But the hilt seems a bit less detailed in the carvings than some of the oldest ones? Michael