Etching wootz, opinion needed.

thomas hauschild · 13th January 2018, 02:38 PM

As a knifemaker I do not use iron3chlorid anymore. I hate that. Every little difference in degreasing and difference in heat-treating is visible and any micron rest of the acid will result rust. After lots of oil you can have a red rust if you do not take care.

I have etched some pieces of wootz with nital, which works well. Instant coffee makes a good black colour and from my experience its makes a more ph-neutral surface which will not rust so easy.

At the end I have etched some hundred blades of different damascus-steels and every blade was different. Sometimes there were great different results even if the steel was from the same billet. There was often a situation that I decided to grind the etch away and to do everything again and then the result was much better. Every none uniform quenching will result clouds in the etching (You can name it hamon when itˋs under control )

With that now visible areas on your blade it will be difficult to get a better result without grinding everything away to a shiny bladesteel. So every blade is different and it will be difficult to give you a receipt that will work 100%. Try out only light etching which will not remove much of the steel. Grind a small area with 1200 grit shiny on your blade were it is bright and dark together and try nital with some drops. Maybe you will find a solution that will work. Good luck

Best Thomas

Drabant1701 · 13th January 2018, 04:24 PM

Thank you Marius and Thomas for your replys.

I polished 600 grit to 1200 grit to 4000 grit polish paper on this one. The first etching was with lemon, that worked fine. But since it showed this area of bad etching I repolished and etched the last 1/3 of the sword with ferric chloride just to see if it produced a better result on the problem area. It did not.

So I have to repolish and etch one last time. I will most likely etch it with lemon. Ferric chloride give a darker pattern but I agree with Thomas, Ferric is not fun to work with and I have had problems getting good etchings on other blades I have.

Thomas, I would love to try etching with Nital, but it is not possible to get it in Sweden.
I did not know that it was possible to etch wootz with instant coffe. I really need to give that a try. Approximately how long does it need to be emerged in the coffe for it to etch?

Thats a great looking dagger Marius, that chaotic wootz sure is facinating to look at.

regards
Peter

ariel · 13th January 2018, 05:31 PM

How do you do it with instant coffee?

thomas hauschild · 13th January 2018, 10:17 PM

Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on damascus blades. I use it everytime for damascus blades. Some weeks ago I have found a pamor lancehead on a fleemarket and the coffee worked better than ferric acid. To bring out a deep structure on my damascus I start with sulfuracid to „make the structure“ first. But the colour is often gray with that and the coffee afterwards brings out a deep black on the none nickelsteel. I do not know what the coffee makes with the surface. But the black colour seems to be relative stable against new rust. With ferric I have sometimes the first slight red rust after seconds and you are not fast enough with cleaning it. I have made some copper/iron mokume gane some weeks ago and the coffee is able to make the iron black without etching the copper. So it is a wide field for testing.

My experience with antique wootz blades is , of course, a minor experience. I do not have so much of them. 😢And as I said , each blade will etch different.
Hope I can help a little bit.

Best Thomas

mariusgmioc · 13th January 2018, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas hauschild

Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on damascus blades.

Best Thomas

Very, very interesting! Definitely worth a try.

Thank you!

ariel · 14th January 2018, 03:41 AM

Thanks!!!

Kmaddock · 14th January 2018, 08:45 PM

Hi
There is tannic acid in coffee, and seemingly 30 other organic acids as well ( according to my quick google of “tannic acid in coffee”) I assume it is these that are doing the etching?
Ken

JT88 · 12th September 2021, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas hauschild

Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on Damascus blades.

Sorry to revive this thread but I have been attempting to etch an old Turkish Pala and have had a couple of issues that maybe you guys can answer.

I have now tried both 2% nital and ferric chloride. The nital seems superior as it does not rust as quickly, but as others have pointed out it is very non-uniform in its etch. I apply with a paintbrush. I've also tried applying with cotton pads but it doesn't seem to work as well.

Ferric chloride mixed 5:1 almost immediately rusts the blade, prior to even bringing out any pattern. So it has been retired from use.

I have been mixing a large amount of baking soda with water but it seems ineffective in neutralizing the acid. Though from what I have read it seems you guys are rinsing the blade and rubbing baking soda directly onto the blade if I read that correctly? So not mixing it prior.

Finally, I'd like some more info on the instant coffee method, are you simply leaving the blade in water mixed with instant coffee for many hours? Seems like there is good feedback on this method and I'd like to give it a go.

Regards,
Jack

Ian · 13th September 2021, 02:31 PM

JT88, it sounds as though your ferric chloride solution is too strong. I would suggest a 1:20 solution of FeCl3 in water and see how that works for you. It may take several minutes to bring out a pattern but you should be less likely to go straight to rust. Warming the blade can accelerate the process when using milder solutions.

A lot of this is trial and error. Fortunately the blade can always be repolished and one can start over.

JT88 · 13th September 2021, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

JT88, it sounds as though your ferric chloride solution is too strong. I would suggest a 1:20 solution of FeCl3 in water and see how that works for you.

A lot of this is trial and error. Fortunately the blade can always be repolished and one can start over.

Thanks for the response after reviving a long dead thread.

I did dilute it more last night and give it another go, looks pretty decent now. Still a bit of a brown tinge overall, but not too much. Wondering if stop now or keep trying to go darker.

I am still very curious about trying instant coffee, one of the other posters said they would do it after using ferric chloride. Hope they will respond with a process for it.

Has been an exhaustive process, many re-starts. I think the pattern looks better now than when I got it, but less uniform overall.

13th January 2018, 04:24 PM	#2
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Thank you Marius and Thomas for your replys. I polished 600 grit to 1200 grit to 4000 grit polish paper on this one. The first etching was with lemon, that worked fine. But since it showed this area of bad etching I repolished and etched the last 1/3 of the sword with ferric chloride just to see if it produced a better result on the problem area. It did not. So I have to repolish and etch one last time. I will most likely etch it with lemon. Ferric chloride give a darker pattern but I agree with Thomas, Ferric is not fun to work with and I have had problems getting good etchings on other blades I have. Thomas, I would love to try etching with Nital, but it is not possible to get it in Sweden. I did not know that it was possible to etch wootz with instant coffe. I really need to give that a try. Approximately how long does it need to be emerged in the coffe for it to etch? Thats a great looking dagger Marius, that chaotic wootz sure is facinating to look at. regards Peter Last edited by Drabant1701; 13th January 2018 at 09:38 PM.

13th January 2018, 02:38 PM	#1
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 141	As a knifemaker I do not use iron3chlorid anymore. I hate that. Every little difference in degreasing and difference in heat-treating is visible and any micron rest of the acid will result rust. After lots of oil you can have a red rust if you do not take care. I have etched some pieces of wootz with nital, which works well. Instant coffee makes a good black colour and from my experience its makes a more ph-neutral surface which will not rust so easy. At the end I have etched some hundred blades of different damascus-steels and every blade was different. Sometimes there were great different results even if the steel was from the same billet. There was often a situation that I decided to grind the etch away and to do everything again and then the result was much better. Every none uniform quenching will result clouds in the etching (You can name it hamon when itˋs under control ) With that now visible areas on your blade it will be difficult to get a better result without grinding everything away to a shiny bladesteel. So every blade is different and it will be difficult to give you a receipt that will work 100%. Try out only light etching which will not remove much of the steel. Grind a small area with 1200 grit shiny on your blade were it is bright and dark together and try nital with some drops. Maybe you will find a solution that will work. Good luck Best Thomas

13th January 2018, 05:31 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	How do you do it with instant coffee?

13th January 2018, 10:17 PM	#4
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 141	Water and some spoons of instant coffee. It is a very slow etching. You can put a blade in for some hours without a big risk to remove too much steel. But it will etch to a deep black and you can feel a structure after a day on damascus blades. I use it everytime for damascus blades. Some weeks ago I have found a pamor lancehead on a fleemarket and the coffee worked better than ferric acid. To bring out a deep structure on my damascus I start with sulfuracid to „make the structure“ first. But the colour is often gray with that and the coffee afterwards brings out a deep black on the none nickelsteel. I do not know what the coffee makes with the surface. But the black colour seems to be relative stable against new rust. With ferric I have sometimes the first slight red rust after seconds and you are not fast enough with cleaning it. I have made some copper/iron mokume gane some weeks ago and the coffee is able to make the iron black without etching the copper. So it is a wide field for testing. My experience with antique wootz blades is , of course, a minor experience. I do not have so much of them. 😢And as I said , each blade will etch different. Hope I can help a little bit. Best Thomas

14th January 2018, 03:41 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks!!!

14th January 2018, 08:45 PM	#7
Kmaddock Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Ireland Posts: 543	Hi There is tannic acid in coffee, and seemingly 30 other organic acids as well ( according to my quick google of “tannic acid in coffee”) I assume it is these that are doing the etching? Ken

13th September 2021, 02:31 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	JT88, it sounds as though your ferric chloride solution is too strong. I would suggest a 1:20 solution of FeCl3 in water and see how that works for you. It may take several minutes to bring out a pattern but you should be less likely to go straight to rust. Warming the blade can accelerate the process when using milder solutions. A lot of this is trial and error. Fortunately the blade can always be repolished and one can start over.