Unreliable gunpowder and variation in powder flask sizes

Philip · 7th January 2018, 09:54 PM

Hi, Rick
Very useful info!

1. As regards the relative strengths of the powder in the cartridges used in the comparison test, I would still make an allowance for some deterioration in performance as a result of over a century's storage, even in a "sealed" cartridge case. Black powder has always consisted of only 3 ingredients, and the "optimum" formulation has been hit upon in both Eastern and Western cultures centuries ago. The standard formula used in Western Europe, Britain, and the US has remained constant for over 150 years, and variation in performance can most likely be attributed to quality of ingredients, and storage conditions over time. Even in a "corned" configuration, black powder has inherent instabilty. It doesn't settle or separate into its constituents like "meal" powder, but the ingredients, especially the charcoal, are a magnet for atmospheric moisture to a degree that nitrocellulose (smokeless) powders are not. Remember the old saying "Keep your powder dry!"? Brass cartridge cases (as in the case of .45/70 ammo you mentioned) protect the contents a lot more effectively than powder flasks, or the wooden barrels formerly used for bulk storage. Yet I've pulled enough heads from cartridges that have exhibited greenish gunk and other shmutz on the outside, and have found it on the inside surfaces as well. As I recall, in older American cartridges like the .45/70, the case lip was crimped against the sides of the lead slug, and the slightest microscopic gap in between is enough to let in enough ambient atmospheric moisture to degrade the powder to a certain degree over more than a century. Not enough to render it entirely impotent -- a 15% decrease is not enough to make the thing totally "safe" and as you know, excavated ordnance from the Civil War and Franco-Prussian War have gone off with a healthy bang when detonated. I think that certain European cartridges, like the 11 mm Gras, Mauser, and Mannlicher rounds which have a wax-impregnated paper "jacket" which surrounds the slug as the brass is crimped over it, might provide a better anti-moisture barrier.

2. Not surprising that the powder recovered from the chamber of that Balkan gun had uneven grain size. It's likely that a lot of the powder made locally was handmade in mom-and-pop village operations, which didn't have the machinery that commercial or military powder mills were equipped with at the time. However, the stuff no doubt worked well enough for the purpose. It seems that these cultures had their own methods for grading the quality of local powder (there is mention of a grading scheme in Delhomme's report on Moroccan gun manufacture that I cited in a prior post), so they must have had a way to optimize the use of the product available to them.

Maskell · 7th January 2018, 10:55 PM

Just a couple interesting tidbits, about 30 years ago I purchased from an antique shop one of those early European triangle flasks, likely German like those pictured in the Night Watch by Rembrandt. Wood, iron mounted of munition grade. What was interesting was a crank on the side, removing the top their was a wire contraption I assume used to mix the serpentine powder, never seen another like it. Then about 5 years ago I bought an estate collection of arms that was always in the family, was a matching pair of large & small American powder horns, carved & dated 1812 from Rochester MA. The large one was full of serpentine powder, the small empty. Being a back woods community I assume corned gunpowder was not available & they likely made their own gunpowder.

Best,
Jerry

Pukka Bundook · 8th January 2018, 01:48 AM

Jerry,

Rather than serpentine, I think the fine stuff May be priming powder.
Can't say for sure though! Also many used the same powder for priming as was carried in the main horn.
If this fine powder was in a large horn, I'd assume it was for storage.

Rick,
In tests, I believe Bill Curtis RA, found that modern powder is not as good as the old stuff. His family were the Curtis part of Curtis & Harvey's.

FWIW, the original charge for the Snider Enfield was 2 1/2 drams, Roughly 68 grains of Rifle Powder. (Bear with me! ) We normally just use 70 grs of 2F. It appears though, that we get roughly 100 to 150 feet/second less velocity with the same charge.
Yes, there are sorts of possible reasons, and " Better then then now" is a blanket statement for brevity, but I'm sure you see what I'm driving at.

All best,
Richard.

7th January 2018, 09:54 PM	#1
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	strength of old powder / consistency in grain size Hi, Rick Very useful info! 1. As regards the relative strengths of the powder in the cartridges used in the comparison test, I would still make an allowance for some deterioration in performance as a result of over a century's storage, even in a "sealed" cartridge case. Black powder has always consisted of only 3 ingredients, and the "optimum" formulation has been hit upon in both Eastern and Western cultures centuries ago. The standard formula used in Western Europe, Britain, and the US has remained constant for over 150 years, and variation in performance can most likely be attributed to quality of ingredients, and storage conditions over time. Even in a "corned" configuration, black powder has inherent instabilty. It doesn't settle or separate into its constituents like "meal" powder, but the ingredients, especially the charcoal, are a magnet for atmospheric moisture to a degree that nitrocellulose (smokeless) powders are not. Remember the old saying "Keep your powder dry!"? Brass cartridge cases (as in the case of .45/70 ammo you mentioned) protect the contents a lot more effectively than powder flasks, or the wooden barrels formerly used for bulk storage. Yet I've pulled enough heads from cartridges that have exhibited greenish gunk and other shmutz on the outside, and have found it on the inside surfaces as well. As I recall, in older American cartridges like the .45/70, the case lip was crimped against the sides of the lead slug, and the slightest microscopic gap in between is enough to let in enough ambient atmospheric moisture to degrade the powder to a certain degree over more than a century. Not enough to render it entirely impotent -- a 15% decrease is not enough to make the thing totally "safe" and as you know, excavated ordnance from the Civil War and Franco-Prussian War have gone off with a healthy bang when detonated. I think that certain European cartridges, like the 11 mm Gras, Mauser, and Mannlicher rounds which have a wax-impregnated paper "jacket" which surrounds the slug as the brass is crimped over it, might provide a better anti-moisture barrier. 2. Not surprising that the powder recovered from the chamber of that Balkan gun had uneven grain size. It's likely that a lot of the powder made locally was handmade in mom-and-pop village operations, which didn't have the machinery that commercial or military powder mills were equipped with at the time. However, the stuff no doubt worked well enough for the purpose. It seems that these cultures had their own methods for grading the quality of local powder (there is mention of a grading scheme in Delhomme's report on Moroccan gun manufacture that I cited in a prior post), so they must have had a way to optimize the use of the product available to them.

7th January 2018, 10:55 PM	#2
Maskell Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 38	Just a couple interesting tidbits, about 30 years ago I purchased from an antique shop one of those early European triangle flasks, likely German like those pictured in the Night Watch by Rembrandt. Wood, iron mounted of munition grade. What was interesting was a crank on the side, removing the top their was a wire contraption I assume used to mix the serpentine powder, never seen another like it. Then about 5 years ago I bought an estate collection of arms that was always in the family, was a matching pair of large & small American powder horns, carved & dated 1812 from Rochester MA. The large one was full of serpentine powder, the small empty. Being a back woods community I assume corned gunpowder was not available & they likely made their own gunpowder. Best, Jerry

8th January 2018, 01:48 AM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Jerry, Rather than serpentine, I think the fine stuff May be priming powder. Can't say for sure though! Also many used the same powder for priming as was carried in the main horn. If this fine powder was in a large horn, I'd assume it was for storage. Rick, In tests, I believe Bill Curtis RA, found that modern powder is not as good as the old stuff. His family were the Curtis part of Curtis & Harvey's. FWIW, the original charge for the Snider Enfield was 2 1/2 drams, Roughly 68 grains of Rifle Powder. (Bear with me! ) We normally just use 70 grs of 2F. It appears though, that we get roughly 100 to 150 feet/second less velocity with the same charge. Yes, there are sorts of possible reasons, and " Better then then now" is a blanket statement for brevity, but I'm sure you see what I'm driving at. All best, Richard.