bugis keris

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by David

Interesting examples.
I don't think i would qualify the second example as Bugis. I do not see classic elements of Bugis construction or style in that one. What about this keris identifies this keris as Bugis for you. It also seems like a rather new creation that follows a more modern expression of artistic keris styles rather than adhering to any particular traditional "pakem".

how are you david,
that is kris bugis, many who do not know kris bugis, most people equate it with javanese kris, but many things that make it much different than javanese kris, as I described above, that many pakem' or ricikan kris bugis that many people do not know , especially those in europe, in bugis own land many variants of kris bugis that rarely published or even not shown to others because in bugis land still strongly believe in the mystical things that exist and is contained in a keris or other heirloom.
Perhaps friends here never heard of a kingdom named luwu kerajan that exist in the land bugis, the beginning of the establishment of kingdom luwu, coinciding with the birth of metallurgical culture, especially the use of iron for weapons heirlooms and so forth .. where one of the iron which is considered magical and most sought after is Luwu iron (Ussu iron).
there are several versions of it, such as .konon kris making or weapons in that era is a kind of guns berpamor, which one of them is Ussu iron from Luwu which contain lots of meteorite and nickel, so that Luwu iron (ussu) become material the main prestige of making in the manufacture of kris, in the book Encyclopedia Keris mentioned that the iron Luwu market known as Bessi Pamorro, until the year 1920 is still found in the market of Salatiga with perkilo price equivalent to 50 kg of rice

best regrads

LP

[La Pagaru]

dear all
this is an example of a luwu iron sample from the bottom of the lake matano luwu sulawesi south (bugis land), in the shape of a sword, we deliberately cut it so we can examine the content contained therein, the sword is estimated to date from the 7th century AD.

The world’s largest nickel-mining complex is located in the southern of lake Matano, which has led speculation that bickellifeous iron ore from the Matano area was smelted to produce the famous Pamor Luwu used in Majapaahit Krisses”.


LP

[David]

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

there are several versions of it, such as .konon kris making or weapons in that era is a kind of guns berpamor, which one of them is Ussu iron from Luwu which contain lots of meteorite and nickel, so that Luwu iron (ussu) become material the main prestige of making in the manufacture of kris, in the book Encyclopedia Keris mentioned that the iron Luwu market known as Bessi Pamorro, until the year 1920 is still found in the market of Salatiga with perkilo price equivalent to 50 kg of rice

Hi LP. Yes, i believe that many, if not most of us are aware of pamor Luwu and it's source from Sulawesi. It was a highly valued source of iron for a good period of time and does indeed seem to have been used in the forging of old Javanese keris. However, this is a material, not a forged and finished keris. Iron from Luwu was well known to have a relatively high nickel content but my understanding was that it was entirely terrestrial. Can you point to any references that maintain such ore also contained "lots of meteorite"?
I'm afraid i do not see a particularly old keris in your second example, but perhaps we need to see more images. Can you show us an image that shows this entire blade?

[A. G. Maisey]

The iron deposits at Luwu are laterite ores.

In the 1980's my understanding is that there was a small commercial smelting operation going on at Luwu. I was told this by Panembahan Harjonegoro (alm.) who gave me a piece of this commercially refined nickel.

The current situation in Luwu can be understood by following these links:-

http://www.oxis.org/theses/misol-2103.pdf

https://www.reuters.com/article/indo...0R42WI20140904

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN19P1Q5

[Jean]

Hello La Pagaru,
Like many kris collectors I deeply appreciate the Bugis krisses for their strong "character", but I have difficulties to identify the pamor pattern of the Bugis blades although I have a copy of the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" to which you apparently contributed?
For instance how would you appraise the pamor pattern of the 2 Bugis blades attached? According to the reference book the pamor pattern of the first blade is Tebba Bunga (equivalent to Lar Gangsir in Java).
Regards

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello La Pagaru,
Like many kris collectors I deeply appreciate the Bugis krisses for their strong "character", but I have difficulties to identify the pamor pattern of the Bugis blades although I have a copy of the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" to which you apparently contributed?
For instance how would you appraise the pamor pattern of the 2 Bugis blades attached? According to the reference book the pamor pattern of the first blade is Tebba Bunga (equivalent to Lar Gangsir in Java).
Regards

greetings, the kris you show has a pamor which here we call it la kurissi daung kaluku (coconut leaves) interspersed with the pamor of Java people call it adeg while in bugis call it daung ase (rice leaf), while the second keris we call pamornya is wunga ase (rice flower) , kris kris you are very beautiful, I am sometimes stunned to remember the keris of friends outside the country is a very rare bugis keris, I hope there will be a bugis keris exhibition especially in europe, especially dutch

Best regrads
Lp

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by David

Hi LP. Yes, i believe that many, if not most of us are aware of pamor Luwu and it's source from Sulawesi. It was a highly valued source of iron for a good period of time and does indeed seem to have been used in the forging of old Javanese keris. However, this is a material, not a forged and finished keris. Iron from Luwu was well known to have a relatively high nickel content but my understanding was that it was entirely terrestrial. Can you point to any references that maintain such ore also contained "lots of meteorite"?
I'm afraid i do not see a particularly old keris in your second example, but perhaps we need to see more images. Can you show us an image that shows this entire blade?

Dear david

that is bugis david, here still sometimes we get heirlooms from the direct owners that they can from the heritage of their ancestors, they sometimes do not like if part of the shell fall out or dull so jadang they sharpen and sharpen it, though the blade is very well maintained because here we have own way different from jawa in taking care of kris, using warangan, we here only use lime to care for our heirloom and just perfume from incense smoke,

Best regrads
LP

[David]

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

Dear david

that is bugis david, here still sometimes we get heirlooms from the direct owners that they can from the heritage of their ancestors, they sometimes do not like if part of the shell fall out or dull so jadang they sharpen and sharpen it, though the blade is very well maintained because here we have own way different from jawa in taking care of kris, using warangan, we here only use lime to care for our heirloom and just perfume from incense smoke,

Best regrads
LP

Thanks for finally responding to my post LP, but you did not really address most of my questions, including clarification about your remark that pamor Luwa contains a "lot of meteorite" and my request that you show a complete image of the last blade you posted. I am aware of the differences in maintenance practices between Jawa and Bugis cultures, but there is more about this last blade you posted than its good condition that makes be suspect it is a contemporary blade.

[A. G. Maisey]

Hi La Pagaru,

I would have posted this question earlier, but at present I am away from home and moving around, so net access + time has been a bit restricted.

I refer to this statement of yours:-

"--- a little explanation about the variant of the existing bugis keris, which we must know, the bugis forging system is slightly different from the Javanese kris, and the difficulty level is much harder than the Javanese kris according to the recognition of some masters in Java and Madura---"

can you please explain for us precisely what it is that makes the Bugis forge process much more difficult than the forge process in Jawa and Madura.

I am very familiar with Javanese forge processes, both archaic and modern, and I am capable of understanding technical explanations of forge work, and of the carving work that follows the production of the forging.

Thank you for your consideration.

[La Pagaru]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Hi La Pagaru,

I would have posted this question earlier, but at present I am away from home and moving around, so net access + time has been a bit restricted.

I refer to this statement of yours:-

"--- a little explanation about the variant of the existing bugis keris, which we must know, the bugis forging system is slightly different from the Javanese kris, and the difficulty level is much harder than the Javanese kris according to the recognition of some masters in Java and Madura---"

can you please explain for us precisely what it is that makes the Bugis forge process much more difficult than the forge process in Jawa and Madura.

I am very familiar with Javanese forge processes, both archaic and modern, and I am capable of understanding technical explanations of forge work, and of the carving work that follows the production of the forging.

Thank you for your consideration.

Dear mr iG maisy

of course, we call it hanging steel, I can not explain it in more detail, our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java, you would not believe me if I say that Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us, in our history recorded in our ancient records, that the king majapahit willing to marry his son with king luwu only for pamor and pamor techniques that are owned luwu or sulawesi

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for your response La Pagaru.

So, you do not know anything at all about the forging process that your smiths use except that some unidentified people have declared that it is much more difficult than the methods used in Jawa and other places?

Is this so?

When you are able to answer my question I will be very interested in just what these extreme difficulties faced by your smiths are.

I do understand that my name might be quite difficult for some non-native speakers of English to write, however, I would truly appreciate your courtesy in trying your best to copy the form of my name that I use in this forum:-

A. G. Maisey

If this is too difficult to remember, may I suggest that you copy and paste?

[David]

Originally Posted by La Pagaru

of course, we call it hanging steel, I can not explain it in more detail, our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java, you would not believe me if I say that Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us, in our history recorded in our ancient records, that the king majapahit willing to marry his son with king luwu only for pamor and pamor techniques that are owned luwu or sulawesi

I would love to see such claims presented as substantiated facts when possible Andi. I would not be surprised if a Mojopahit king may have seen fit to create a marriage bond in order to obtain a direct line to the raw materials that mines in Luwu could provide. As i stated before, we are mostly all aware here of pamor Luwu and that it was prized in Jawa many years ago. But this is about resources and materials, not forging techniques. The Bugis did not teach that empus of Jawa how to forge. They were merely a source for some of the raw materials that skilled empus in Jawa then turned into fine keris. If you are going to make controversial statements like "our forging system is much more difficult compared to that in Java" or "Java people imitate the making of pamor on kerisnya follow us" you had better have something more than merely empty statements to back that up. Just saying something is so over and over again does not make it so.