handgonne (handbüchse) from Sammlung Baumann aus Rothenburg ob der Tauber

Marcus den toom · 2nd January 2018, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Well Marcus, some times these things are product of artists imagination, just like the ridiculous hook Michael pointed out in the thread you linked.
On the other hand, i can show you two other versions of the Schopettieri you have posted; one with the hook and the other without it, but all three with a different attire, so at the taste of the authors. In any case it seems that, if the hook was required in such case, it would be to prevent the recoil against that 'suspicious' holding device ... but maybe too thin to be true ?

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Hi Nando,

My remark was not perse related to the haquebut discussed here, but more towards your remark of there not beeing any horseman haquebuts.
The illustrations you posted seem of later date and are clearly all based on this attached illustration by Mariano di Iacopo (Mariano Taccola, also referred to during his life as the 'Archimedes of Siena') (1381-?1453). It is an illustration of a knight with what appears to be a Steinbuchse /haquebut.

The construction might look thin, but i doubt these haqeubuts to be all that big and the recoil must have been absorbed by the hook and gun rest and also by the person itself (see the attachement by means of a rope around the shoulders of the knight).
If this is a practical piece of gun, i doubt it and with the lack of fysical evidence (saddles with gunrest) i can't say if this is indeed just a fantasy or a real working life concept. Still the illustration is there and must have been considered as an option to fire from horseback.

fernando · 3rd January 2018, 01:51 PM

Hi Marcus,
So the first illustration you posted is also a later version of the original which, added to my two copies, makes Taccola be be proud of so much resource to his work.
Nevertheless what we are facing is imaginative/stylized ideas, produced by the master of devices not brought into practice. In other words we all agree that, the functional version of hand gonnes being used by horsemen was yet to be established, the hook being so far an illustrative appendix. I am not versed in dynamics but, i take it that the implements designed to hold still the gun, would have to be subject to serious ponderation as, it the shooting caused some sifnificant recoil, would not only be the saddle rest to tackle the impact but also the shooters breast sternum

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Pukka Bundook · 3rd January 2018, 03:12 PM

Dear Fernando,

I too believe these images to be imaginative.
The 'rest' for the barrel could not be used as such, as the whole apparatus would merely sink down onto the horses neck. Recoil on the other hand, would tend to lift the barrel out of the fork, and just as you say, deliver the blow to the saddle, sternum, and if the barrel lifted much, possible the firer's face!
Even as a child when I first saw these images, I thought them fanciful, just like the camel images we see with a great big cannon tied to it's side!

3rd January 2018, 01:51 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Marcus, So the first illustration you posted is also a later version of the original which, added to my two copies, makes Taccola be be proud of so much resource to his work. Nevertheless what we are facing is imaginative/stylized ideas, produced by the master of devices not brought into practice. In other words we all agree that, the functional version of hand gonnes being used by horsemen was yet to be established, the hook being so far an illustrative appendix. I am not versed in dynamics but, i take it that the implements designed to hold still the gun, would have to be subject to serious ponderation as, it the shooting caused some sifnificant recoil, would not only be the saddle rest to tackle the impact but also the shooters breast sternum .

3rd January 2018, 03:12 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Dear Fernando, I too believe these images to be imaginative. The 'rest' for the barrel could not be used as such, as the whole apparatus would merely sink down onto the horses neck. Recoil on the other hand, would tend to lift the barrel out of the fork, and just as you say, deliver the blow to the saddle, sternum, and if the barrel lifted much, possible the firer's face! Even as a child when I first saw these images, I thought them fanciful, just like the camel images we see with a great big cannon tied to it's side!