Portuguese navigator sword for comments

[Madnumforce]

I'm sorry, but as much as I'd like it to be true (because this kind of folded tang is very often seen on French billhooks, and I search every bridge I can find between tools and swords), I find this tang to be a bit suspicious. The patina doesn't seem to be right at all, like if it was just a few years old. Can you confirm?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

because this kind of folded tang is very often seen on French billhooks,

The issue of patina aside, I note that tangs folded over the pommel at right angles is an aspect of tool construction not restricted to parts of Europe. I've seen it on any number of native-made bush knives and agricultural implements from SE Asian and Far Eastern cultures, and the practice spills over into tool designs modified for use as weapons as well. It's almost universal on the handles of kitchen utensils and knives from China and Vietnam as well. It's a practical and simple assembly method, albeit lacking in visual elegance. Looseness in the grip caused by wood shrinkage is very easily remedied by tapping the bent portion of the tang with a hammer until it seats tightly again.

I wouldn't be surprised if this system was used in parts of Africa as well; I am not familiar with the material cultures there so perhaps other forumites can address this.

The point is that, considering the nascent Portuguese empire's exposure to African and Asian cultures in the wake of the early voyages from the Atlantic and across the Indian Ocean to the East China Sea, there are all kinds of way that various aspects of material cultures encountered along the way could have been adopted. Also significant is the fact that the Portuguese utilized the resources and labor of local craftsmen wherever they went to provide the tools and infrastructure needed to further their conquests and colonial endeavors.

[kronckew]

I ca't say for african swords, but african axes frequently have a tanged head that is burnt into the haft and the end bent over. (yjey also can be peened over a keeper)

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

... I find this tang to be a bit suspicious. The patina doesn't seem to be right at all, like if it was just a few years old. Can you confirm?...

Well Geoffroy, the only thing i find suspicious is the quality of the picture i took, rather 'astonishing'; besides a bit of a cleaning, due to some local top rust. But i would not doubt the sketch shown in post #1, drawn by the Nany Museum technical consultant, where this fixation method is shown as a system.
I will upload here pictures of two examples shown in the same publication, belonging to private collectors, added by a couple citations written by the said expert. I don't expect you read portuguese, but i trust that you trust the quoted evidence .

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[Madnumforce]

All this is rather interesting. Thank you Fernando for the complementary information. I'm not that surprised that finally I discover a type of sword with a bent-over tang, but just the aspect of it, the lack of patina, which looks like it was just forged, with scale in just-out-of-the-forge condition. This was puzzling me.

I agree with you all that this method of fixation is extremely commonplace on tools in general, but precisely it is never seen on swords, despite its obvious advantages. Well, not exactly "never" have I just discovered.

[fernando]

The picture i took from the pommel had the flash activated, after been rubbed with a slightly abrazive washing sponge soaked in WD40 and oiled afterwards; maybe this contributed for a looking as new aspect. It was all me trying to rub off some rust near the tang bent end.
There certainly must be a metallurgic explanation for the apparent lack of patina. In any case it is visible that it has not been tampered with; and so far i am confident over that.

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[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

There certainly must be a metallurgic explanation for the apparent lack of patina. In any case it is visible that it has not been tampered with; and so far i am confident will over that.

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Hi, Fernando
Thanks for explaining it. Question: In "real life" does the metal on the exposed part of your tang have a somewhat bluish tinge?

If so it might be mill scale, a tough oxidized "skin" that forms on iron when hammered or worked at forging heat. The stuff is surprisingly durable, it clings tenaciously to the underlying iron and retards corrosion. I've noticed, when experimenting with a file on pieces of old junk iron which has the layer intact, that this thin layer tends to be harder than the underlying metal. So it is quite abrasion resistant. I have removed loose handles from damaged swords which I know to be 18th cent. or even earlier, and been surprised to see patches of this bluish skin intact in places not attacked by the rust which you would expect from something that old. Often, the undisturbed scale and the rust pitting are right next to each other. I am sure that if the tang was ground or polished so that all the scale was removed at time of manufacture, the entire tang would have rusted more consistently.

[fernando]

Hi Philip,
I think i know what you mean and subscribe such reasoning.
Mind you, the soft rubbing i gave it, with a deliberately worn sponge, may hardly be considered abrasive, for what the term means; the 'blueing' remained intact ... only brighter. I wonder whether at the time to mount these sword hilts, the tang ends receive another heat up to make it easy to bend them over the pommels. Such silly thought is due to the fact that these blades were stored in bundles until the moment they neded to be mounted. In the Paço dos Duques de Bragança collection there are a few of these swords that were gathered together with their guards but were never mounted, as they were kept in such condition in one of the arsenals, waiting for action days


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[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Philip,

Mind you, the soft rubbing i gave it, with a deliberately worn sponge, may hardly be considered abrasive, for what the term means; the 'blueing' remained intact ... only brighter. I wonder whether at the time to mount these sword hilts, the tang ends receive another heat up to make it easy to bend them over the pommels. Such silly thought is due to the fact that these blades were stored in bundles until the moment they neded to be mounted.


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Obrigado pelas fotos! Now I see the distinction that collection curators make in the quality of the various blades -- I have always wondered about the fact that it varies, and that some have ricassos that taper at an angle to the tang rather than having a distinct "step" -- so un-European in flavor.

It's not a silly thought -- military armorers who assembled the blades onto completed hilts were wise to heat the end of the tang again before bending and beating it down with the hammer. This would remove any stresses in the metal; also, with blades from disparate sources and qualities, it would be hard to judge from looking at the tangs "as is" whether the hard steel layer that comprised the "heart" of the blade extended all the way to the end of the tang, or if (in the case of cheaper quality blades), a soft iron tang was lap-welded to the billet that comprised the blade itself while it was being shaped into a blade. In the former case, it would be advantageous to heat again because bending steel while "cold" to such an angle might cause it to fracture.

Also, the difference in the surface appearance of your pommel might be explained by the fact that your hilt may have been recycled from a broken sword, and fitted to a newer blade during its service life. My impression from reading about Portuguese martial history is that a lot of equipment, from armor to ships, sometimes remained in use for a very long time.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

All this is rather interesting. , but precisely it is never seen on swords, despite its obvious advantages. Well, not exactly "never" have I just discovered.

You may as well stay tuned to the Ethnographic forum because someone is bound to post some weapon that has utilizes a bent tang to anchor its hilt. The tribal cultures of Asia or the Pacific Rim come to mind, I distinctly recall encountering it on certain short swords of the Taiwan highland aborigines, and other groups in mainland SE Asia. It's surprising how certain elements become associated with just one thing, or area, but turn out to be fairly widespread. I used to associate ring-shaped pommels with China, but found out later that they are perhaps developed from such on bronze-age knives unearthed in southern Mongolia, and are also seen on some early Celtic long swords.