Spanish Bilbo Circa 1700

fernando · 1st January 2018, 12:27 PM

Hi Cathey,
If i dare point out a couple discrepancies on your notes.

The sword model...
As you kow, the term Bilbo (Basque/Euskera for Bilbao) is somehow a catch-all word, created by english speakers to refer to swords imported from that capital city of the Biscay Gulf province, region of the famous Mondragon steel. In strict terms, to call a sword style a Bilbo falls into some contingency. In the case of your example, if i well discern, it would be a mounting sword (Espada de montar), for which the Spaniards had a name that resembled is assymmetrical guard shells, called Boca de Caballo (horse mouth). Once it has the Carlos IV (which i don't view as being a remark), this both means it is a military issue made to Royal property (the civilian version also existed) and, Carlos IV having reigned between 1788-1808, your sword would be the "new model", as the first one was issued durig the previous Carlos III realm.

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

The second blade iscription ...
Although i didn't figure out its actual meaning, it looks consistent with some letters of the initials referring the military corps it was produced for, as usually done.
The mark in the ricasso ...
This is somehow intriguing. Starting by the attribution given to Maria Hortuna (better spelt Hortuña). Maria is a woman's name and we don't know any records of a female sword smith; unless the author eventually picked the sword smith's wife at reading whatever notes.
On the other hand, all three Hortuños registered in Palomares chart (and not only) were of a Basque family (Ortuño) that worked in Toledo in dates prior to this type of sword, from grandfather 1604-1613 to grandson registered in 1637.

http://hedatuz.euskomedia.org/2217/1/04029034.pdf

Furthermore the letter H's they used as mark, together with the Toledo symbol, are not consistent with the one in your blade ... assuming yours is a H.
See Palomares nomina for the three Hortuños and their marks, positions #22, #38 and #80.
... And forgive me if my assessments would do no more than misguide you; iam not even a Spaniard.

.

Madnumforce · 1st January 2018, 06:29 PM

That's extremely interesting. Well, I'm not so interested in maker's marks, but discovering the Spanish tradition is something new to me. It's amazing to see typically Spanish designs surviving in renewed, late 18th century forms.

fernando · 1st January 2018, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madnumforce

That's extremely interesting. Well, I'm not so interested in maker's marks, but discovering the Spanish tradition is something new to me. It's amazing to see typically Spanish designs surviving in renewed, late 18th century forms.

Personally i am a passionate of marks. It is a vast universe to dive in. Just don't push me into it

..

Cathey · 2nd January 2018, 12:18 AM

Hi Fernando

I am also passionate about marks but find them very frustrating. The only H I could find that vaguely resembled the mark on this sword was listed as Maria Hortuna 17th Century Esoana (Toledo) Ref LENKIEWICZ-Zygmunt 1000 Marks of European Blade Makers Pp29. I have attached the extract.

As for this H or whatever it is, looks like a squat H to me though, I am hoping someone out there has seen it before and can shed some light on it.

With regard to this sword, what appears to be unusual is that it is a backsword blade, not broadsword. All of these swords in my reference books are broadswords. This might be why the previous owner was of the opinion that the blade predates the hilt and that the original engraving has been removed or altered to accommodate a latter monarch.

Any other examples of these swords with backsword blades would be appreciated.

Also, this example has straight quillons, any thoughts about when these came in or where they around at the same time as the curved ones.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

fernando · 2nd January 2018, 05:43 PM

Let me still take some shots before more knowledged members show up to correct me ... which is not so difficult.
Hortuño Maria instead of Maria Hortuño makes all the difference ... in gender.
Hortuño being male, is not uncommon to have (female) Maria as a second name over here. Still i gather that this smith doesn't figure within this issue, nor he figures in listings by Palomares, Leguina, Gestoso or even Lhermite, who has been in Toledo around 1600 and listed its smiths and their marks. It could well be a less published smith, working for a contract; however his ambiguous mark (a H or maybe a small animal) on a rapier doens't appear to to fit in your case.
I had a further reading on these swords, a subject as vast as a bottomless well. The Boca de Caballo (assymmetrical shells) hilt had its beginnning in the XVII century, with the so called modelo 1650. It is also registered that such model had straight quillons.
Concerning blade markings ant their meddling with, authors like Juan L. Calvó admit the possibility of blades imported from Germany (Solingen) (before the opening of the Toledo factory in 1760) having their original inscriptons changed to more fit Spanish (Castillian) legends, but also possible that smiths installed in Spain marked their blades as produced in Germany to favour their commercialization.

http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?t=14794

On the other hand, one may notice that the Carlos IV initials (Cs. IV) in blades are rather identical to the one you have in your example, as may be seen in swords mounted for other military branches like Infantry, and such blades having a square back along more than 1/3 and double edgded until the point.
So for the approach of the blade predating the hilt, in another angle is the hilt that predates the blade. Definitely the (doubtful) H mark in the ricasso from (misterious ) Hortuño Maria would give a great push to cracking the riddle.

.

Foxbat · 2nd January 2018, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Fernando

With regard to this sword, what appears to be unusual is that it is a backsword blade, not broadsword. All of these swords in my reference books are broadswords.

Hello,

I can't see that in the pictures - to my eyes it looks like both edges are the same - no?

Cathey · 3rd January 2018, 05:08 AM

Hi Guys

the picture does not show it well but the blade is a back sword for 2/3 rd's and spear for the remaining length.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Victrix · 3rd January 2018, 06:14 AM

Hi Cathey and Rex,

Lovely sword! Thanks for posting. I can see the flat edge in the top right photo. Lange messer springs to mind. It’s clearly intended as a cutting (chopping) weapon. Interesting that the blade has no fullers so the strenth is more important than agility. It seems to me that these Boca de Caballos or Espada de Conchas are all different, especially the blades. So production was not standardized and the customer was likely able to choose his favoured blade on which the hafters had fashioned a hilt. Is it possible that the ”H” is a picture of a small animal, like a perillo?

Best wishes for the New Year 2018.

1st January 2018, 12:27 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Correct me if and where i am wrong ... Hi Cathey, If i dare point out a couple discrepancies on your notes. The sword model... As you kow, the term Bilbo (Basque/Euskera for Bilbao) is somehow a catch-all word, created by english speakers to refer to swords imported from that capital city of the Biscay Gulf province, region of the famous Mondragon steel. In strict terms, to call a sword style a Bilbo falls into some contingency. In the case of your example, if i well discern, it would be a mounting sword (Espada de montar), for which the Spaniards had a name that resembled is assymmetrical guard shells, called Boca de Caballo (horse mouth). Once it has the Carlos IV (which i don't view as being a remark), this both means it is a military issue made to Royal property (the civilian version also existed) and, Carlos IV having reigned between 1788-1808, your sword would be the "new model", as the first one was issued durig the previous Carlos III realm. http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf The second blade iscription ... Although i didn't figure out its actual meaning, it looks consistent with some letters of the initials referring the military corps it was produced for, as usually done. The mark in the ricasso ... This is somehow intriguing. Starting by the attribution given to Maria Hortuna (better spelt Hortuña). Maria is a woman's name and we don't know any records of a female sword smith; unless the author eventually picked the sword smith's wife at reading whatever notes. On the other hand, all three Hortuños registered in Palomares chart (and not only) were of a Basque family (Ortuño) that worked in Toledo in dates prior to this type of sword, from grandfather 1604-1613 to grandson registered in 1637. http://hedatuz.euskomedia.org/2217/1/04029034.pdf Furthermore the letter H's they used as mark, together with the Toledo symbol, are not consistent with the one in your blade ... assuming yours is a H. See Palomares nomina for the three Hortuños and their marks, positions #22, #38 and #80. ... And forgive me if my assessments would do no more than misguide you; iam not even a Spaniard. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 1st January 2018 at 12:38 PM.

2nd January 2018, 12:18 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Boca de Caballo Sword Hi Fernando I am also passionate about marks but find them very frustrating. The only H I could find that vaguely resembled the mark on this sword was listed as Maria Hortuna 17th Century Esoana (Toledo) Ref LENKIEWICZ-Zygmunt 1000 Marks of European Blade Makers Pp29. I have attached the extract. As for this H or whatever it is, looks like a squat H to me though, I am hoping someone out there has seen it before and can shed some light on it. With regard to this sword, what appears to be unusual is that it is a backsword blade, not broadsword. All of these swords in my reference books are broadswords. This might be why the previous owner was of the opinion that the blade predates the hilt and that the original engraving has been removed or altered to accommodate a latter monarch. Any other examples of these swords with backsword blades would be appreciated. Also, this example has straight quillons, any thoughts about when these came in or where they around at the same time as the curved ones. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

2nd January 2018, 05:43 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Let me still take some shots before more knowledged members show up to correct me ... which is not so difficult. Hortuño Maria instead of Maria Hortuño makes all the difference ... in gender. Hortuño being male, is not uncommon to have (female) Maria as a second name over here. Still i gather that this smith doesn't figure within this issue, nor he figures in listings by Palomares, Leguina, Gestoso or even Lhermite, who has been in Toledo around 1600 and listed its smiths and their marks. It could well be a less published smith, working for a contract; however his ambiguous mark (a H or maybe a small animal) on a rapier doens't appear to to fit in your case. I had a further reading on these swords, a subject as vast as a bottomless well. The Boca de Caballo (assymmetrical shells) hilt had its beginnning in the XVII century, with the so called modelo 1650. It is also registered that such model had straight quillons. Concerning blade markings ant their meddling with, authors like Juan L. Calvó admit the possibility of blades imported from Germany (Solingen) (before the opening of the Toledo factory in 1760) having their original inscriptons changed to more fit Spanish (Castillian) legends, but also possible that smiths installed in Spain marked their blades as produced in Germany to favour their commercialization. http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/viewtopic.php?t=14794 On the other hand, one may notice that the Carlos IV initials (Cs. IV) in blades are rather identical to the one you have in your example, as may be seen in swords mounted for other military branches like Infantry, and such blades having a square back along more than 1/3 and double edgded until the point. So for the approach of the blade predating the hilt, in another angle is the hilt that predates the blade. Definitely the (doubtful) H mark in the ricasso from (misterious ) Hortuño Maria would give a great push to cracking the riddle. . Attached Images

3rd January 2018, 05:08 AM	#7
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Yes it's a backsword Hi Guys the picture does not show it well but the blade is a back sword for 2/3 rd's and spear for the remaining length. Cheers Cathey and Rex

1st January 2018, 06:29 PM	#2
Madnumforce Member Join Date: Jun 2017 Posts: 28	That's extremely interesting. Well, I'm not so interested in maker's marks, but discovering the Spanish tradition is something new to me. It's amazing to see typically Spanish designs surviving in renewed, late 18th century forms.

3rd January 2018, 06:14 AM	#8
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hi Cathey and Rex, Lovely sword! Thanks for posting. I can see the flat edge in the top right photo. Lange messer springs to mind. It’s clearly intended as a cutting (chopping) weapon. Interesting that the blade has no fullers so the strenth is more important than agility. It seems to me that these Boca de Caballos or Espada de Conchas are all different, especially the blades. So production was not standardized and the customer was likely able to choose his favoured blade on which the hafters had fashioned a hilt. Is it possible that the ”H” is a picture of a small animal, like a perillo? Best wishes for the New Year 2018.