How Strong are Luzon and Visayan Blades

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by kai

I'm with Timo. For every excellent katana there were dozens of average examples produced and a considerable amount of rather crappy katana blades...

The same can be found for many other cultures all across the globe.



And there certainly are also antique Moro kris of rather poor workmanship, too. Not everbody can afford top notch craftsmanship, in any culture.



Some of the displayed ignorance is really sad!

The Lumad, the Visayans and some of the communities of southern Luzon actually had to literally fend off the Moro raiders for centuries; it was them rather than the Spaniards who stood their ground!

A considerable part of the Moro economy was based on a predatory life style; raiders sure appreciate high quality "tools" and also have the means to spend considerable amounts for their blades. I certainly would not be surprised if any of the Moro peoples were shown to having had higher quality blades on average than, for example, Visayan communities. However, it does not follow that high-end Moro blades surpassed high-end Visayan blades. And whatever quality the blades of each side might have had, the outcomes over much of the historic time were not necessarily in favor of the Moro, despite their undeniable warrior skills...

Regards,
Kai

i think the original poster was asking about modern made knives.
and in generally the muslims in the south have a good deal more martial culture than the rest of the phillipines. for the average phillipino bolos are just tools and cheap disposable ones at that.. there is a few collectors and people interested but they are a small minority..
ifugao for example like them but mostly as tools so the quality of their knives is generally good but its very.. basic they make a few styles and they use them for work not to impress.

in the past there was a big knife culture but over tie in the phillipines with poverty and decline of a the colonial society along with decline of the native material culture its pretty much dead. nobody is strutting round with the latest bolo on to show of any more..

but in plces like malaysia and indonesia there is still a big culture around kris knives and such ect..
its unfortunate in the phillipines its in such a decline..

some knives for example in panay are basically good solid work knives.. but there is no superior knives sold either.. the worst quality is quite good and functional and there is nothing but work tools.. the locals were shocked i would have any interest in knives at all,
with the muslim groups in the south they immediately prick up their interest when you mention you like knives and many people have old knives they keep from their family.. big difference.
its interesting too how there has been such a decline to the point that in some areas the pepole forgot how to split rattan and use "plastic rattan" instead.. or they stopped working with animal horn all together and you see the horns unused,

ive been to many knife making areas of the phillipines and in some areas there is more makers than customers then in other areas there is few makers and more cusotmers ect..

phillipinos dont want to do manual work in fact in all over asia manual workers are just considered stupid or foolish ect for doing such difficult things its like the reverse of northern european culture where the hard working guy is the good example.. im really shocked when somebody is ashamed that their parents are blacksmiths ect and that a "good job in the city"
and generally knife making is a poor "dirty" job and probably one of the lowest professions. which is really a shame. .. and people just dont value it. it dosnt hold the cultural prestige a knife or weapon maker holds in bali for example where they are linked to religion
a general lack of pride in something kills it , just like wood working and metal casting also are lowest of the low jobs.. good job its work for an american or european company with benefits or work in the government where you can snag a bit of graft.


they should really make some national association of knife makers or blacksmiths and have a registry of all places where knives are made ect as its one of the few ethnically distinct cultural and regional things that survive and its interesting.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ausjulius

i think the original poster was asking about modern made knives.

No, he was asking about antique blades, look post #13.

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Sajen

No, he was asking about antique blades, look post #13.

oh ok i stand corrected well we mostly are not testing our antiques that much, but ive never broken an antique blade.. phillipino or otherwise i think they generally much better quality than current made stuff from the same region

[Ian]

Here is a relatively recent (late 20th C.) Ilokano knife which is well made. The blade shows a clear hardened edge that I think reflects quenching rather than an inserted edge. The sheath is nicely tooled leather with brass fittings. Hilt is made from horn with metal inserts.

This example reflects ongoing skills in the manufacture of certain Luzon blades.

Ian.

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[Ian]

Another mid- to late- 20th C. piece. This is a Visayan plamingko from Panay. Again, an excellent blade with a hardened edge (I've not etched it but the hardened edge is apparent in the hand, although not seen in the picture). Good quality hilt and scabbard as well. Nothing fancy, just a well made and very functional knife--just as effective as a gunong.

Ian.

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[Philip]

Having restored, polished, and cut things with a lot of antique and recent-vintage SE Asian and especially Filipino knives and swords over the years, I can say that they all, being handmade by craftsmen, are highly individualistic in terms of their metallurgical quality. It's almost impossible to generalize by type.

I've worked on old Moro kerises that would truly impress the Spanish colonizers of centuries past for their resilience and temper, not to mention the pattern-welding. Others have less going for them -- forging flaws, or excessively soft cores that take a set easily. Some edges are quenched and tempered very hard like Indian crucible steel, others have a softer and tougher edge like a machete, and a few are just plain soft. And there is no hard-and-fast correlation between steel quality and the artistry of the hilt. Campilion blades are prone to even more variation, understandable since it is quite difficult to temper such long and thin blades in pre-industrial conditions.

Some collectors tend to disparage central and northern Philippine knives for the less-careful finish quality, but many of these are really well-tempered, sturdy, and efficiently designed. It's hard to beat a good talibong for a combo of cutting and stabbing efficiency. Battara is right about the availability of industrial steel in the 20th cent. contributing to greater consistency in the finished product. Nothing wrong with jeep and truck spring steel... A Thai knifemaker told me that Japanese leaf springs from light trucks made up through the 1970s are lamellar, a type of "san mai" construction and that is why they were popular material for dha blades made in Aranyik.