Circa 1575 Shell Guard Cutlass or Riding Sword

cornelistromp · 26th December 2017, 03:52 PM

indeed a beautiful Dutch hanger but not 1575 but 150-200 years later , from the 18th Century.
for examples see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=amsterdam

best,
Jasper

Cathey · 26th December 2017, 11:50 PM

Hi Jasper

I also looked at the Dutch Hanger in Sim Comfort’s book but the shell and pommel configuration of this particular sword appear earlier to me. It actually compares more closely to the one featured on page 5 EW5 and this blade is also of German manufacture.

Personally, given the blade on this sword I struggle to accept that the cutlass is as late as the 18th century. The sword does not appear to be a marriage of earlier blade with a later hilt; they appear to have been together for a very long time. The balance is wonderful it is simply a pleasure to hold.

Does anyone know how long these Dutch Clam shell cutlass’s where around, and when they first started to appear. There is a lot of variation out there in the shell design and some of the other Dutch ones I have seen are far cruder than this one. The ones featured in the link do not look to be as old as this one. I actually have a Rapier with a similar shell guard, so it looks like the design was utilised across Europe for an extensive period.

Cheers Cathey

cornelistromp · 27th December 2017, 05:25 PM

Hi Cathey,

The book where the etching of Francis the pirate comes from, is a book in the Dutch language published in 1678 in Amsterdam.

A.O. Exquemelin
Americaensche zee-rovers

it is quite possible and also common because most artists were not sword specialists, that a Dutch sword is used from around the period in which he made the work, but Francis has never used and seen this type of sword.
on the other hand Francis was active as a pirate in the 1660, so that would match this type of sword.

the first shellguards are from the last quarter of the 16th century.
see eg different dussage types.
The blade of EW 5 is a type of blade often used on Dutch Swords and often made by clemens Horn in Solingen

best,
Jasper

Cathey · 28th December 2017, 04:52 AM

Hi Jasper

I think my example is also one that has clearly employed a Solingen blade, hence my initial thoughts in agreement with that of the previous owner is a date being late circa 1500s or early 1600s. The particular wolf mark and anchor marks support this and as suggested the hilt appears consistent with the blade. No issue with it being Dutch though, until I looked through Sim Comfort’s book I was unaware of the Dutch cutlasses with shell guards.

I think, when my friend (sadly now deceased so I can't ask him) originally dated this sword he used Dufty as his reference (see attached exerts from Dufty and Peterson). It certainly looks strikingly similar and has a very similar German blade. I have been looking for a reference book on early Dutch arms but all I have found in one on Firearms at this stage. I will start collecting examples for my data base and as I am currently scanning every book in my Arms and Armour library perhaps I will come across other examples in the process.

So at this stage we agree it is not a riding sword and it is a Cutlass, age still up for further debate I think. I am leaning toward 17th century but can’t convince myself it’s as late as the 18th with that blade.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

CutlassCollector · 28th December 2017, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

I have been looking for a reference book on early Dutch arms but all I have found in one on Firearms at this stage. I will start collecting examples for my data base and as I am currently scanning every book in my Arms and Armour library perhaps I will come across other examples in the process.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Hi,
J P Puype produced various books on Dutch Arms and worked for various museums in the Netherlands - he always had a keen interest in naval weapons. His website here, with some early cutlasses on the front page -http://www.adviesoudewapens.nl/index.html - should give you some idea of the books available.

Maybe of some help.
Regards, CC

Cathey · 30th December 2017, 01:09 AM

HI CC

thankyou for the link, I have now purchased one of his books and downloaded another. Still not a lot in print about these cutlasses that I can find as yet.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

Cerjak · 30th December 2017, 07:13 PM

Hi cathey,
Other similar hilts in the Gravensteen Gent Belgium and also one sold in Czerny's
Best
cerjak

,

26th December 2017, 11:50 PM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Dutch Cutlas? Hi Jasper I also looked at the Dutch Hanger in Sim Comfort’s book but the shell and pommel configuration of this particular sword appear earlier to me. It actually compares more closely to the one featured on page 5 EW5 and this blade is also of German manufacture. Personally, given the blade on this sword I struggle to accept that the cutlass is as late as the 18th century. The sword does not appear to be a marriage of earlier blade with a later hilt; they appear to have been together for a very long time. The balance is wonderful it is simply a pleasure to hold. Does anyone know how long these Dutch Clam shell cutlass’s where around, and when they first started to appear. There is a lot of variation out there in the shell design and some of the other Dutch ones I have seen are far cruder than this one. The ones featured in the link do not look to be as old as this one. I actually have a Rapier with a similar shell guard, so it looks like the design was utilised across Europe for an extensive period. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

27th December 2017, 05:25 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Cathey, The book where the etching of Francis the pirate comes from, is a book in the Dutch language published in 1678 in Amsterdam. A.O. Exquemelin Americaensche zee-rovers it is quite possible and also common because most artists were not sword specialists, that a Dutch sword is used from around the period in which he made the work, but Francis has never used and seen this type of sword. on the other hand Francis was active as a pirate in the 1660, so that would match this type of sword. the first shellguards are from the last quarter of the 16th century. see eg different dussage types. The blade of EW 5 is a type of blade often used on Dutch Swords and often made by clemens Horn in Solingen best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 27th December 2017 at 05:54 PM.

28th December 2017, 04:52 AM	#4
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Dutch Cutlass? Hi Jasper I think my example is also one that has clearly employed a Solingen blade, hence my initial thoughts in agreement with that of the previous owner is a date being late circa 1500s or early 1600s. The particular wolf mark and anchor marks support this and as suggested the hilt appears consistent with the blade. No issue with it being Dutch though, until I looked through Sim Comfort’s book I was unaware of the Dutch cutlasses with shell guards. I think, when my friend (sadly now deceased so I can't ask him) originally dated this sword he used Dufty as his reference (see attached exerts from Dufty and Peterson). It certainly looks strikingly similar and has a very similar German blade. I have been looking for a reference book on early Dutch arms but all I have found in one on Firearms at this stage. I will start collecting examples for my data base and as I am currently scanning every book in my Arms and Armour library perhaps I will come across other examples in the process. So at this stage we agree it is not a riding sword and it is a Cutlass, age still up for further debate I think. I am leaning toward 17th century but can’t convince myself it’s as late as the 18th with that blade. Cheers Cathey and Rex Attached Images

30th December 2017, 01:09 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 284	Dutch Cutlass HI CC thankyou for the link, I have now purchased one of his books and downloaded another. Still not a lot in print about these cutlasses that I can find as yet. Cheers Cathey and Rex

30th December 2017, 07:13 PM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hi cathey, Other similar hilts in the Gravensteen Gent Belgium and also one sold in Czerny's Best cerjak , Attached Images

26th December 2017, 03:52 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	indeed a beautiful Dutch hanger but not 1575 but 150-200 years later , from the 18th Century. for examples see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=amsterdam best, Jasper