"A Passion for Indian Arms" Book Review

Battara · 25th December 2017, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I think Jens is correct invoking some “talismanic” meaning, the nature of which is unknown to me.

This is often true in Moro/Filipino and Indonesian examples. I offer this comparison to bolster the argument from cultures who had contacts with the Indian subcontinent.

Mercenary · 25th December 2017, 11:27 AM

Are there such "talismanic" on blades of daggers, sabres, on shields, armour or on something else except blades of khanda/patissa?

mariusgmioc · 25th December 2017, 09:51 PM

Very intersting discussion!
At first I was also convinced the filled holes have some talismanic or decorative purpose but... now I'm not so sure anymore. Are there any exmples of such "talismanic" fillings on Tulwar blades for example? I haven't seen any.
I believe that the hypothesis that the holes are simply from previous mountings is very logical and quite plausible.

However, in the case of the sword from #42, if the holes are from previous mounts, why are they so close to eachother as this would not serve well to the rigidity of the mounting and may even compromise the strength of the blade. And if they come from different mountings, I would expect one to adapt the mounting to the blade and use the existing holes and not drill another hole so close to an existing one.

Kubur · 26th December 2017, 07:14 AM

Talismanic inscriptions and decorations are very well known (blessing and protection)
In the case presented I do not believe in old rivet holes.
There is another option already mentionned above:

proof marks or factory/quality marks.

You have some brass or even gold fillings on Ottoman blades.
They are always connected to a workshop and demonstrate the skill of the smith and the quality of the blade.

Some of these marks including stamps became talismanic with time.
I think at the gurda marks for example.

Happy new year
Kubur

Jens Nordlunde · 27th December 2017, 09:17 PM

I do believe that Kubur is right.
If you want to try to undertand some of it, you will have to look for the the influence of other countries.
Sorry but I will have to drop out once more.

ariel · 29th December 2017, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercenary

Are there such "talismanic" on blades of daggers, sabres, on shields, armour or on something else except blades of khanda/patissa?

Here is an example: Indian tulwar with 2 plugs, one at each end of the blade.
One can wonder about the one close to the handle, but the one near the tip could not be used for a brace:-)

ariel · 29th December 2017, 01:38 AM

And another one: three plugs close to the tip

Likhari · 29th December 2017, 07:37 PM

Now we are talking Ariel !

Thanks for posting these examples. Braces were not used for curved tulwars unless they were the heavy Tegha type as shown in the attached example. The presence of a single hole at each end of the blade on post #60 is intriguing. Do they run through the blade to the other side ?

The holes in the tulwar in post #61 are quite common and do not run through the blade. We can speculate that they are decorative, aniconic , or just part of the fullering.

25th December 2017, 09:51 PM	#3
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Very intersting discussion! At first I was also convinced the filled holes have some talismanic or decorative purpose but... now I'm not so sure anymore. Are there any exmples of such "talismanic" fillings on Tulwar blades for example? I haven't seen any. I believe that the hypothesis that the holes are simply from previous mountings is very logical and quite plausible. However, in the case of the sword from #42, if the holes are from previous mounts, why are they so close to eachother as this would not serve well to the rigidity of the mounting and may even compromise the strength of the blade. And if they come from different mountings, I would expect one to adapt the mounting to the blade and use the existing holes and not drill another hole so close to an existing one. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 26th December 2017 at 05:40 PM.

29th December 2017, 01:38 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And another one: three plugs close to the tip Attached Images

29th December 2017, 07:37 PM	#8
Likhari Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: USA Posts: 34	Now we are talking Ariel ! Thanks for posting these examples. Braces were not used for curved tulwars unless they were the heavy Tegha type as shown in the attached example. The presence of a single hole at each end of the blade on post #60 is intriguing. Do they run through the blade to the other side ? The holes in the tulwar in post #61 are quite common and do not run through the blade. We can speculate that they are decorative, aniconic , or just part of the fullering. Attached Images

25th December 2017, 11:27 AM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Are there such "talismanic" on blades of daggers, sabres, on shields, armour or on something else except blades of khanda/patissa?

26th December 2017, 07:14 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Talismanic inscriptions and decorations are very well known (blessing and protection) In the case presented I do not believe in old rivet holes. There is another option already mentionned above: proof marks or factory/quality marks. You have some brass or even gold fillings on Ottoman blades. They are always connected to a workshop and demonstrate the skill of the smith and the quality of the blade. Some of these marks including stamps became talismanic with time. I think at the gurda marks for example. Happy new year Kubur

27th December 2017, 09:17 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I do believe that Kubur is right. If you want to try to undertand some of it, you will have to look for the the influence of other countries. Sorry but I will have to drop out once more.