Meteoric Blades on Bronze Age Weapons

[motan]

I really don't know anything about forging, but I do have some afterthoughts..
On one hand, the Hittites had both iron and diplomatic relationship with the Egypt (truce was signed during Tut's reign), so that there certainly could have given iron blades as present to the pharaoh.
One the other hand, Egyptians had a centuries long tradition of working meteorite iron, as did other peoples in the Eastern Mediterranean.

However, this is all irrelevant, because analysis of the composition of the blade shows composition typical of meteorite iron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutank...n_dagger_blade). As far as I know, such high nickel does not occur in normal iron ore and no ancient culture mined or smelted nickel. So, for me this case is closed.

Further, it is mentioned in the thread that early iron was not superior to bronze for tools. But another main advantage of iron has been missed here. Iron ore is much more common=cheaper than bronze, as it is today.
Lastly, the spread of iron working following the bronze-age collapse is discussed in the Old Testament. In Samuel, Saul complains that there are no lances an swords in Israel because the Philistines monopolize iron working. The Israelites have to go to Philistines, their enemies even to sharpen and mend their tools - plows, axes and spades are mentioned.

[David]

Originally Posted by motan

On one hand, the Hittites had both iron and diplomatic relationship with the Egypt (truce was signed during Tut's reign), so that there certainly could have given iron blades as present to the pharaoh.

Can you tell us what truce was signed with the Hittites during Tut's reign?

[motan]

Sorry David, you are right, of course. I, like some others here, have mixed up my pharaohs. The treaty was signed in Ramses II's time, about 60-80 years later than Tutankhamun's reign. You got me there.
But the rest arguments are valid. There are several pre iron-age iron artifacts found in the Middle-East, India and China and not all of them can be identified as meteorite iron, but 10% or more Nickel in iron is difficult to explain in other way than meteorite origin, or do you have another explanation?

[David]

Originally Posted by motan

Sorry David, you are right, of course. I, like some others here, have mixed up my pharaohs. The treaty was signed in Ramses II's time, about 60-80 years later than Tutankhamun's reign. You got me there.
But the rest arguments are valid. There are several pre iron-age iron artifacts found in the Middle-East, India and China and not all of them can be identified as meteorite iron, but 10% or more Nickel in iron is difficult to explain in other way than meteorite origin, or do you have another explanation?

Well Motan, i'm not suggesting any explanations here, only looking for something more than speculation and conjecture that might help solve some of these mysteries. Alan has put forth that the KT must have originated from the Hittites, that there is no other possibility. I remain a little more open to the question. He also has suggested that the testing process that has identified this blade as meteorite could be flawed. I tend to agree that this testing processes isn't fool proof. So maybe the blade is meteorite and maybe it is not. If it is not i think that Alan is probably right, the Hittites were really the only group that had the technology to smelt iron and make a blade from terrestrial iron at this time. If indeed the KT blade is terrestrial then it may have come to KT threw various avenues. I am not convinced that the diplomacy existed between these two great powers at that time that the Hittites themselves would have gifted it to the pharaoh directly, but it may have come indirectly to the Egyptian court. However, if the blade actually is meteorite i am also not convinced that the Egyptians couldn't have made it themselves since apparently meteorite can be forged without being smelted and the Egyptians had been working with meteorite for almost 2000 years before the time of Tutankhamun. So this is a metal that they were familiar working with and highly valued. Could the Egyptian have created the KT dagger on their own? I would not count that possibility out even if i do believe it is more likely to have a Hittite origin.

[motan]

Hi David, I don"t want this to become too lengthy, but still..
Diplomatic relation between Hatti and Egypt certainly existed around that time. Suppiluliuma I, the contemporary Hittite king, wanted to wed his son to Tutankhamun's widow, but the boy died before it happened. The Hittite wanted a front against common enemies like the Hurrians and Mittani.
Since the advent of the New Kingdom in Egypt, Pharaohs have been campaigning in Syria, Canaan and Lebanon, where they must have met with the Hettites in battle. They could obtain iron blades from the slain or captures.

Anyway, I am a scientist by training, so if there are lab results, I believe them at least until the next results. Is this 100% sure? Of course not, but it is real evidence and you need real evidence to refute it,
Eytan

[A. G. Maisey]

There are several things I would like to address in these last few posts, and I'll make it as quick as I can.

Is the KT dagger meteoritic material?
If it is truly 10% nickel as Motan advises, it is virtually certain to be of meteoritic origin. Perhaps Motan has read the entire report, I would have liked to, but I baulked at paying to do so.

Does an x-ray examination of a piece of forged and welded ferric material prove that it is of meteoritic origin?
In my opinion no, but it does present a strong hypothesis that appears to be ready to be developed into a theory, at which point it can be attacked and defended.
Please note:- at this time I am not in any way attempting to refute Jambon's findings, but I have been a professional doubter for so long that I tend to very often doubt things that others take at face value.

Was the KT dagger blade made by Hittites, or by some other people?
Prior to the time of KT's death only the Hittites possessed the technology to make this dagger blade.
This technology most definitely did not exist in Egypt until about 600 years after the death of KT. This is not my opinion, it is the opinion of historians who are expert in this field, as just a little research will confirm.

Is it at all possible that the KT dagger blade might have been made in Egypt?
No, it is not.
Meteoritic material had been cold forged in Egypt for a long time prior to KT's death, however, Egypt's metal technology rested firmly on its pottery technology:- the fires used to make pottery were hot enough to smelt and forge copper & tin, but they were a very long way short of being hot enough to weld ferric material. The Hittites did learn how to build forges hot enough to weld ferric material, and it is a very short step from welding ferric material to smelting ferric material. To hot work meteoritic material you need to be able to generate weld temperatures in your forge.

How did KT come into possession of this dagger?
I have absolutely no idea, and I prefer not to engage in speculation.

Did diplomacy exist between Egypt and the Hittite nation?
Beyond doubt, yes, it did.
In fact it existed between all members of the "Great Powers Club"
It existed in several forms, but principally in the system that involved the exchange of gifts, including women to be used as wives for rulers.
This diplomacy is well documented, again, research will confirm this.

Was the gift of King Tushratta's daughter an act that was forced upon him in an effort to improve his alliance with Egypt?
Yes, it was.
Tushratta's sister was already one of Amenhotep's wives, and had been so for about 15 years at the time KT gifted his daughter to Amenhotep. The alliance was already in place, but KT was not prepared for conflict with the Hittites, so he gifted his daughter to Amenhotep because he thought he would need assistance before long. I think David said something similar in one of his posts.

Amenhotep III reigned 1386BC - 1353BC
Tushratta reigned 1382BC - 1342BC
Suppiluliumas reigned 1344BC - 1322BC

Prior to Suppililiumas becoming the Hittite ruler, the Mitani had been stronger than the Hatti (ie, Hittites), however once King Suppi took the throne things changed. There was a mere two year overlap in the beginning of King Suppi's reign and the end of King Tush's reign.
King Tush gifted his daughter Tadukhipa to Amenhotep only a couple of years before KT himself was murdered by his son.
Why did he gift his daughter?
He was forced to do so because of the actions of King Suppi.
When a person is forced to act in a particular way by the actions of another person, it is said that he is "dancing to so & so's tune".

My earlier comment :-
" I suspect that investigation might demonstrate that by the time Tushratta traded off his daughter to Amenhotep III, the Mitrani were already dancing the jig to a tune played by the Hatti/Hittites"
has indeed been proven to be correct.

It does not require conquest to cause somebody to dance to the tune of another, all it requires is for the person who is playing the tune to exert sufficient pressure to make the other dance.

Most of the above is the result of google searches. I ran out of memory, and in the case of some things I simply did not have the necessary knowledge.

What is the difference between meteoritic iron and terrestrial iron?
Meteoritic iron is already in a solid form ready for use. I have worked with it, and if I had had sufficient of the stuff I could easily have produced a blade from it. Some iron meteorites contain nickel in relatively high percentages.

Terrestrial iron ores need to be reduced to turn them into usable material. Iron rusts, which means it combines with moisture, so before terrestrial iron ores can be worked they need to have the moisture removed from the ore, this is what the smelting process does, it removes moisture and produces a solid lump of material called a bloom. This bloom can then be worked in a forge.
Smelting can be used with any ferric raw material, including meteoritic material.
However, in the case of meteoritic material, and also limonite, forge processing is also possible, which is not the case with haematite. Haematite is probably the most prolific source of iron. I doubt that haematite is found in combination with nickel, but limonite is found in combination with nickel, and also with cobalt, however the nickel percentage in limonite is far less than is usual in an iron-nickel meteorite.

This brings us back to the KT dagger:- if the nickel in that blade is 10% it is almost certainly meteoritic.

[motan]

Thank you A.G.Maisey for the comprehensive review and I would not think of saying anything against it. I mean that seriously and without (iron)y.
It actually supports most of the points I have made in my few posts to this thread.
My first point was that I believe the dagger/sword is made of meteorite iron, but I don't understand how they worked it because they didn't fully control forging iron (until much later).
Second, that there were both gift exchange and battles between Egypt and Hatti in this period, so theoretically, there was plenty of opportunity to get a blade made by Hittites, certainly for the pharaoh of Egypt.
Third, and we may not agree on that one, as bad a source as Wiki can be at times, I do not think they cited the numbers wrongly from a scientific paper and I tend to believe the numbers: 11% nickel and 0.6 cobalt, even without reading the original paper.
Eytan

[David]

Well Alan, i am glad i could be of some assistance in allowing you to brush up on your Egyptian history. Hopefully it wasn't too painful for you in the end, but it does seem pertinent to the question at hand.
I won't press you much more on it, but while i do agree with most of what you wrote i do have a couple of questions.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Did diplomacy exist between Egypt and the Hittite nation?
Beyond doubt, yes, it did.
In fact it existed between all members of the "Great Powers Club"
It existed in several forms, but principally in the system that involved the exchange of gifts, including women to be used as wives for rulers.
This diplomacy is well documented, again, research will confirm this.

If this is the case, can someone please point me to the well documented diplomacy that existed between Tutankhamen's court and that of the Hittite. KT's court mind you, not his predecessors or any pharaoh who followed him.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

King Tush gifted his daughter Tadukhipa to Amenhotep only a couple of years before KT himself was murdered by his son.

I am assuming this was a typo. You have all through this conversation been abbreviating King Tutankhamen as KT. Surely you did not mean to say that KT was killed by his son since he did not have any sons, or any children that lived for that matter. Tushratta was apparently killed by a grouped led by one of his sons. Can i assume that is what you meant to say?

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Terrestrial iron ores need to be reduced to turn them into usable material. Iron rusts, which means it combines with moisture, so before terrestrial iron ores can be worked they need to have the moisture removed from the ore, this is what the smelting process does, it removes moisture and produces a solid lump of material called a bloom. This bloom can then be worked in a forge.
Smelting can be used with any ferric raw material, including meteoritic material.
However, in the case of meteoritic material, and also limonite, forge processing is also possible, which is not the case with haematite. Haematite is probably the most prolific source of iron. I doubt that haematite is found in combination with nickel, but limonite is found in combination with nickel, and also with cobalt, however the nickel percentage in limonite is far less than is usual in an iron-nickel meteorite.

This brings us back to the KT dagger:- if the nickel in that blade is 10% it is almost certainly meteoritic.

Jambon doesn't analyse the dagger; he uses the measurements by Comelli et al. 2016, (10.8% Ni, 0.58% Co, and also quotes the measurement given by Ströbele et al. 2016 (ref at end), 12.9% Ni.

A few comments on smelting etc.:

"Smelting" is the conversion of ore to metal. For iron, this is typically done by using carbon to bond to the oxygen in an iron oxide, giving CO or CO2 and metallic iron. For a metallic meteoric, there is no need for smelting, because it's already metallic. For any ore, you smelt, by definition, to obtain metal. For iron, the temperature required is well below the melting point of iron, and the chemistry can be made to happen in the solid state, giving a bloom. The is some conflation of "smelting" and "melting" in non-technical usage. You can melt with smelting (just start with metal instead of ore) and smelt without melting (as possible with iron).

When an ore is heated to remove moisture, the process is "roasting", not smelting. Some ores (like limonite) are hydrated, and some are not. Roasting can also be used to make other changes in the ore, such as converting sulphides to oxides. The difference between smelting and roasting is that smelting produces metal and roasting produces a different type of ore. When limonite is roasted, it's converted to haematite, which is then smelting as usual.

The usual early traditional method to smelt limonite (e.g., bog iron) was to roast and then smelt in a bloomery furnace.

For details of the chemistry of smelting and roasting:
https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/am...ne/ra_2_2.html
or the version with frames if you want to navigate to elsewhere in the document:
https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/index.html

I haven't heard of limonite with significant amounts of nickel. The common high-nickel iron ore is laterite. Jambon gives some data for nickel and cobalt content of various laterites.

Other refs:

Comelli et al. 2016: https://doi.org/10.1111/maps.12664

Jambon: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jas.2017.09.008

Ströbele et al., 2016:
F. Ströbele, K. Broschat, C. Koeberl, J. Zipfel, H. Hassan, Ch Eckmann
The iron objects of tutanchamun. Metalla
Archäometrie und Denkmalpflege 2016, Göttingen
Sonderheft, 8 (2016), pp. 186-189

[David]

Originally Posted by motan

Hi David, I don"t want this to become too lengthy, but still..
Diplomatic relation between Hatti and Egypt certainly existed around that time. Suppiluliuma I, the contemporary Hittite king, wanted to wed his son to Tutankhamun's widow, but the boy died before it happened. The Hittite wanted a front against common enemies like the Hurrians and Mittani.

I believe i mentioned this before. But it was Tut's widow who instigated this conversation, not the other way around, as she was worried about what would happen and who she would be married off to after the death of Tut. This was considered an "unprecedented" move at the time. Yes, i am sure this would have been considered advantageous by Suppiluliuma at the time, but it was not his idea.
People keep talking about diplomacy between the Eqypt and the Hittites during King Tutankhamen's rule, but i have yet to see any evidence of that, "Great Power Club" not withstanding. Yes, i don't doubt that other pharaohs may have had such diplomatic relations with the Hittite, but we are trying to determine how this dagger ended up in Tut's tomb, not the tomb of any other pharaoh.