Omani Matchlock Barrel - Abu Fathilah

[Richard G]

I would have said this barrel is set up in a modern version of the traditional Scinde stock. I have seen a number of these Scinde 'jezails' with this type of barrel. My suspicion is that these barrels, as you say, closely associated with Omani matchlocks, actually originate in Scinde.
Regards
Richard

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I would have said this barrel is set up in a modern version of the traditional Scinde stock. I have seen a number of these Scinde 'jezails' with this type of barrel. My suspicion is that these barrels, as you say, closely associated with Omani matchlocks, actually originate in Scinde.
Regards
Richard

Hi Richard.

Thanks for your reply. Yes, the stock shape of this gun more reflects the stocks made for the Sindh guns. See below. My guess is that this was the stock style used as a pattern by the late builder.
I seem to recall our beloved, Matchlock had posted a gun on the European Forum from the late 15th to early 16th Century that had the barrel near the muzzle end fluted similar to the Omani barrels. This might mean some type of very early European influence (?) It's just curious the only surviving specimens with this style of barrel are on Omani matchlocks.

Rick

[Philip]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Richard.


I seem to recall our beloved, Matchlock had posted a gun on the European Forum from the late 15th to early 16th Century that had the barrel near the muzzle end fluted similar to the Omani barrels. This might mean some type of very early European influence (?) It's just curious the only surviving specimens with this style of barrel are on Omani matchlocks.

Rick

Not surprising that this bit of Germanic influence should persist in this remote corner of the Ottoman Empire, considering the flow of goods and concepts via war and trade to the east and south from the Habsburg domains down through the Balkans to Turkey, then southward through the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula from the 15th cent. onward.

Ever notice the similarity between the barrels of German "jaeger" style rifles of the 17th-18th cent., and the barrels of many Ottoman shoulder weapons of the same period? Short- to medium lengths (compared to Arab and north African), octagonal cross-sections, swamped muzzles, and rifled bores of fairly large diameter with an odd number of round-bottom grooves in a rather slow twist? I think that this is more than just coincidence.

[Pukka Bundook]

Richard G,

I too have seen these barrels obviously stocked up in Scinde fashion, and wondered about their originating there. Very interesting !
I do not recall seeing more than one stocked in toradar fashion, and came to the "conclusion" that likely these were indeed Persian barrels traded up into Scinde as well as Oman. This however may be all wrong, and maybe Scinde Did produce these barrels. There appears very few examples for us to work off.

Philip & Rick,

As these barrels appear to all have Persian (?) stampings at the breech, I think wherever they were made they are copies of European barrels made in a Very similar manner and are very old.. As they have usually un-drilled tangs, I see this as being copied from European tangs, but in this case mounted in a different manner and the tang not used as support or fastening.
Henry V111's barrels on his breech-loaders are Northern Italian products, and are Very similar in the fluting of the barrels to these mystery pieces.

All very interesting!
Richard.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Richard G,

wherever they were made they are copies of European barrels made in a Very similar manner and are very old.. As they have usually un-drilled tangs, I see this as being copied from European tangs, but in this case mounted in a different manner and the tang not used as support or fastening.
Henry V111's barrels on his breech-loaders are Northern Italian products, and are Very similar in the fluting of the barrels to these mystery pieces.

All very interesting!
Richard.

Good points, Richard. You see a lot of design "spillover" from earlier European technology and stylistics which survive in Eastern arms for quite awhile. And yes, fluting (and conversely, ridging) was a an important part of the decorative repertoire of Brescian barrel makers of the 16th and 17th cent.

Also, ket's keep in mind that barrel tangs were not a universal feature on earlier European firearms. They were not typical on, say, the Bohemian Schnapplunte arquebuses that the Indo-Portuguese snap matchlock guns were based on. (see close up image in Rainer Daehnhard's ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA , Lisbon 1994, pp 50-51) The Germanic antecedents seemed to have flat breeches that butted against the end of the channel in the stock, the barrels being retained by the transverse pins in the forestock which held the perforated mortises dovetailed to the underside. Interesting to note that the firearms of Malaya, China, Japan, and Korea never had tanged barrels, inheriting the constructional details introduced by the Portuguese in the 1500s -- in all these areas the breechplug has a very short square extension that locks into a corresponding mortise in the end of the channel. Some Indian toradars of the 18th cent or later still retain this particular feature.

I have in my collection a Brescian gun, ca 1630, fitted-up for an Ottoman barrel made without any tang or tenon whatsoever on the breechplug. As is typical with Ottoman matchlock guns, it was designed to be retained by barrel pins or keys, which suited Italian stock-fitting practices perfectly.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Richard G,

I too have seen these barrels obviously stocked up in Scinde fashion, and wondered about their originating there. Very interesting !
I do not recall seeing more than one stocked in toradar fashion, and came to the "conclusion" that likely these were indeed Persian barrels traded up into Scinde as well as Oman. This however may be all wrong, and maybe Scinde Did produce these barrels. There appears very few examples for us to work off.

Philip & Rick,

As these barrels appear to all have Persian (?) stampings at the breech, I think wherever they were made they are copies of European barrels made in a Very similar manner and are very old.. As they have usually un-drilled tangs, I see this as being copied from European tangs, but in this case mounted in a different manner and the tang not used as support or fastening.
Henry V111's barrels on his breech-loaders are Northern Italian products, and are Very similar in the fluting of the barrels to these mystery pieces.

All very interesting!
Richard.

Hi Richard.
Thanks for your response. I, personally, have not seen a Sindh or Torador gun with this fluted barrel. Doesn't mean they don't exist. Interesting that you've seen even a couple examples. At present, I too am in the school that these barrels, in this form, have a Persian origin. Problem is also that there are so few genuine all-Persian made specimens to examine. A while back there was an entire Thread delving into this. A real curiosity.
By the way, I took the breech tang screw out of this gun to examine. Sure enough, the hole in the tang was drilled later by the builder to accept a somple wood screw. Darn. But it confirms your analysis.

Rick

[grendolino]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Richard.
Thanks for your response. I, personally, have not seen a Sindh or Torador gun with this fluted barrel. Doesn't mean they don't exist. Interesting that you've seen even a couple examples. At present, I too am in the school that these barrels, in this form, have a Persian origin. Problem is also that there are so few genuine all-Persian made specimens to examine. A while back there was an entire Thread delving into this. A real curiosity.
(...)
Rick

Isn't this one quite similar fluted barrel stocked in poor jezail style?

[Philip]

That sure is a nice one! Is the bore rifled? Any sign of twist forging? The flat-bottomed channels with square ends take a lot of skilled labor to cut, with chisels and then finishing with scrapers and shaped whetstones. The style of those grooves is also seen on the fullering of some saber blades from Eastern countries.

[Pukka Bundook]

Grendolino,

Yes indeed, the barrel you show is of the type in question.
A very nice barrel too, with all the hallmarks belonging to this type.
I do not know whether it has been shortened, as it Is shorter than we normally see, and the tang appears shortened or broken off.
Thank you for showing it! It adds even more questions to this equation!!
I note that the rear sight has been removed, and a later one fitted right at the breech. All V interesting!

Rick,

here are the other two I have seen photos of, One tarador and one Scinde fashion;
Please forgive the poor photos, they are all I could get.
Both guns doi show the 'same' barrel style although the torador has a sight at the breech whereas most have the rear sight further forward.

Sorry photos came out in random order!!

Philip,
Yes, we do see Toradors with a lump below the breech for a fastening pin. Good observation and how it ties in with the earlier European breeches!

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by grendolino

Isn't this one quite similar fluted barrel stocked in poor jezail style?

Hi Grendolino.

Thank you so much for posting this Jazail. Yes, the same family of barrels. And this one converted to percussion no less. While the use and re-use of barrels was common, this barrel may have been near 200 years old by the time it was mounted in this Jazail stock. Amazing. As Richard mentions, the barrel may have been shortened at some point. Maybe at the time it was converted.
The original rear sight removed and a simple notch rear sight mounted at the breech, which seemed to be favored on Jazail and Torador barrels.
The prolonged use of these barrels is amazing. Very interesting. And adds further to the mystery of these barrels.

Rick

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Philip

Not surprising that this bit of Germanic influence should persist in this remote corner of the Ottoman Empire, considering the flow of goods and concepts via war and trade to the east and south from the Habsburg domains down through the Balkans to Turkey, then southward through the Levant and the Arabian Peninsula from the 15th cent. onward.

Ever notice the similarity between the barrels of German "jaeger" style rifles of the 17th-18th cent., and the barrels of many Ottoman shoulder weapons of the same period? Short- to medium lengths (compared to Arab and north African), octagonal cross-sections, swamped muzzles, and rifled bores of fairly large diameter with an odd number of round-bottom grooves in a rather slow twist? I think that this is more than just coincidence.

Hi Philip.
Thanks for your respose. Yes, the flutes would seem to have a German/European origin if you go back far enough in time. It seems that most everything gun related in the Eastern markets can be traced to a European design one way or the other.

Barrels on Ottoman shoulder guns: Now that you mention it, yes, the similarities in barrel design do mimic the early jaegar barrels. Good observation. The only difference in the Ottoman barrels being the more frequent use of damascus, which would be the norm.

Rick

[Philip]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Philip.


Barrels on Ottoman shoulder guns: Now that you mention it, yes, the similarities in barrel design do mimic the early jaegar barrels. Good observation. The only difference in the Ottoman barrels being the more frequent use of damascus, which would be the norm.

Rick

Before damascus and fancy twists became the rage in 19th cent. Britain (shotguns) and France (pistols), it was also practiced by some European barrelsmiths as early as the 17th cent. Last year, Czernys sold a ca. 1700 Italian sporting gun with a rifled damascus barrel signed by Johann Schifter (Wiener Neustadt, Austria, fl 1694-1730, Stöckel 8210, 8211). In my collection is a miquelet carbine with a rifled damascus barrel of a style normally seen on early-mid 17th cent. wheellocks, that happens to have the same rifling pattern as that of the Johann Schifter example. (It, too, is deeply fluted at the breech).

Damascus barrels were also made at the Royal Arsenal at Naples for especially fine guns. The 18th cent. Neapolitan master Michele Battista is known to have made a few, there are examples in the Windsor Castle collection and in the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum (Munich).

Truth be told, improvements in European barrel-forging techniques beginning in the 17th cent. began to give twist-forged and damascus barrels a run for the money, especially in the realm of shotguns and pistols. The legendary Cominazzo and Franzino families produced tubes of superb strength and lightness, thin-walled at the muzzle allowing for far better balance yet standing up to healthy powder charges that could give mid-caliber projectiles good muzzle velocity. Ditto for the horseshoe-nail-forged shotgun barrels devised by the Hispano-German master smith Nicolás Bis and taken up by virtually all of Spain's finest smiths thereafter. Of course, none of these superior products had a surface pattern in the steel that gave the swirling patterns of damascus its immense aesthetic appeal and for some applications, such as mid-to-large caliber rifles, captured Turkish barrels rebored and remounted in Western style made very respectable sporting weapons even into the early 19th cent.

Were damascus barrels "the norm" for Ottoman shoulder weapons as a whole? I would suspect that they were actually the minority back in their working lives, since their cost made them unaffordable for the back-country hunters or the masses of rank and file troops alike. We see so many of them now because they were the ones that were saved rather than scrapped because of their outstanding appearance.