Meteoric Blades on Bronze Age Weapons

David · 18th December 2017, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The KT dagger can be dated to around 1300BC.

We have in the KT dagger a particular artefact, that required a particular technology and a particular skill to produce.

There is no evidence of that technology and skill existing in Egypt at or prior to the date of the KT dagger.

There is evidence of the technology and skill existing in Anatolia at the date of the KT dagger, and for a considerable time before this date.

The raw material used in Anatolia was probably haematite, it might have been magnetite, it could have been limonite, it was almost certainly not generally meteorite, but in very early items, it might have been.

In fact, we are not talking about the dagger as a whole, we are only talking about the blade, the mounts are Egyptian. Dagger blades were recognised as acceptable gifts between rulers at this time in history.

The core question here is the way in which the Jambon findings are to be understood. In my opinion Jambon has produced a hypothesis, he has not produced a theory, and he has not produced proof of meteoritic origin of the KT dagger.

On the last note Alan i believe i have made it clear that we are in agreement.
I have certainly not ruled out that the KT blade may have come from a source outside of Egypt, however, if we are looking for evidence, i don't believe we can find much evidence that the Hittites would have gifted such a blade to any of the pharaohs of Egypt as they were in a rather continuous adversarial state previous to the peace treaty brokered by Ramses II in 1258 BC. Perhaps it may have been a war capture and seeing how iron in Egypt was seen at that point as a metal associated with royalty and power it may have found its way to the pharaoh. I just see no evidence that these two super powers of their day were giving gifts to one another at this point in history.

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2017, 02:42 AM

Yes, I think we are largely in agreement David, however, you misunderstand me if you believe that I am claiming that the KT dagger was a gift from the Hittite court to the ruler of Egypt.

How could I possibly make such a claim? This would be pure supposition and I do try my best not get involved in such nonsense.

What I do claim is that manufacture of the KT dagger blade required an advanced level of iron working skill and technology.

In 1300BC this skill and technology did not exist in Egypt, but it did exist in Anatolia. the people who inhabited Anatolia were Hittites, the Hittite people were the ones who at this time in history did have the skill and the technology to make the KT dagger blade.

The Hittite court had connections with the court of Egypt.

At this time in history iron dagger blades were considered to be suitable gifts for royalty.

How the KT dagger blade got from Anatolia to Egypt I have no idea at all, but I do posit that it was of Anatolian origin.

rasdan · 18th December 2017, 08:14 AM

Hello everybody,

Coincidentally, early last month a guy in YouTube uploaded his experiment in forging meteorite. Campo del Cielo meteorite to be exact. What I can say is that it looked very very difficult. The presentation can be annoying at times but the content is very interesting. We can finally witness the difficulties in forging this material if we do not know how to do it.

Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_5tIPP3dM

Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-QWol38NA0

Other videos showing successful attempts are also available in Youtube.

Rasdan

A. G. Maisey · 18th December 2017, 09:16 AM

Yes Rasdan, you said it :- "---if you don't know how to do it---"

Well, not quite all, because I never had a failure, I couldn't afford to, it was so horribly expensive. I didn't know how to do the first time I tried, I learnt as I worked, but my first attempt was not a failure.

This bloke is trying to weld too cold, he simply does not understand forge welding. He is forging too cold for this material too. Meteorite needs to be forged close to weld temperature, if you do not and you forge too cold, it comes unstuck, and that is exactly the problem he's having.

Secondly he is not washing the material before trying to forge it:- minimum of 7 fold + weld is necessary.

The material itself looks excellent, he reckons it is terrible material? Oh yeah? I wish I could have got stuff like that when I was doing this.

Meteorite is no more difficult to weld than a bloom, or middle quality wrought iron, and it is probably easier than hot short iron.

He'd probably do a wee bit better if somebody taught him how to hold and use a hammer:- you do not hold a hammer like a club, you hold it with your thumb along the top of the handle, this aids control, increases force.

Most of all you need to understand the nature of the material, and coax it to do what you want it to do. This bloke obviously thinks that brute force and ignorance will get results. It will not.

Edit

Something else I just noticed too:- most of the time he's choking his hammer, as the video progresses his hand moves down the hammer handle, the hammer is too heavy for him.

rasdan · 18th December 2017, 11:09 AM

G'day Alan

Yes I agree with you. If we spend some time thinking/studying about it just a bit more before starting a work the outcome would be much better. This person looks as if he is in a hurry to achieve something. Or probably he is only after the number of views of his video. Perhaps he will come up with another video when he has got the necessary skills/knowledge for this type of work.

18th December 2017, 08:14 AM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Hello everybody, Coincidentally, early last month a guy in YouTube uploaded his experiment in forging meteorite. Campo del Cielo meteorite to be exact. What I can say is that it looked very very difficult. The presentation can be annoying at times but the content is very interesting. We can finally witness the difficulties in forging this material if we do not know how to do it. Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_5tIPP3dM Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-QWol38NA0 Other videos showing successful attempts are also available in Youtube. Rasdan Last edited by rasdan; 18th December 2017 at 08:29 AM.

18th December 2017, 09:16 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes Rasdan, you said it :- "---if you don't know how to do it---" Well, not quite all, because I never had a failure, I couldn't afford to, it was so horribly expensive. I didn't know how to do the first time I tried, I learnt as I worked, but my first attempt was not a failure. This bloke is trying to weld too cold, he simply does not understand forge welding. He is forging too cold for this material too. Meteorite needs to be forged close to weld temperature, if you do not and you forge too cold, it comes unstuck, and that is exactly the problem he's having. Secondly he is not washing the material before trying to forge it:- minimum of 7 fold + weld is necessary. The material itself looks excellent, he reckons it is terrible material? Oh yeah? I wish I could have got stuff like that when I was doing this. Meteorite is no more difficult to weld than a bloom, or middle quality wrought iron, and it is probably easier than hot short iron. He'd probably do a wee bit better if somebody taught him how to hold and use a hammer:- you do not hold a hammer like a club, you hold it with your thumb along the top of the handle, this aids control, increases force. Most of all you need to understand the nature of the material, and coax it to do what you want it to do. This bloke obviously thinks that brute force and ignorance will get results. It will not. Edit Something else I just noticed too:- most of the time he's choking his hammer, as the video progresses his hand moves down the hammer handle, the hammer is too heavy for him. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 18th December 2017 at 11:51 AM.

18th December 2017, 02:42 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, I think we are largely in agreement David, however, you misunderstand me if you believe that I am claiming that the KT dagger was a gift from the Hittite court to the ruler of Egypt. How could I possibly make such a claim? This would be pure supposition and I do try my best not get involved in such nonsense. What I do claim is that manufacture of the KT dagger blade required an advanced level of iron working skill and technology. In 1300BC this skill and technology did not exist in Egypt, but it did exist in Anatolia. the people who inhabited Anatolia were Hittites, the Hittite people were the ones who at this time in history did have the skill and the technology to make the KT dagger blade. The Hittite court had connections with the court of Egypt. At this time in history iron dagger blades were considered to be suitable gifts for royalty. How the KT dagger blade got from Anatolia to Egypt I have no idea at all, but I do posit that it was of Anatolian origin.

18th December 2017, 11:09 AM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	G'day Alan Yes I agree with you. If we spend some time thinking/studying about it just a bit more before starting a work the outcome would be much better. This person looks as if he is in a hurry to achieve something. Or probably he is only after the number of views of his video. Perhaps he will come up with another video when he has got the necessary skills/knowledge for this type of work.