Flintlock Musket Advice Required

Norman McCormick · 16th December 2017, 11:15 PM

Hi Fernando,
Yeh, I suppose that's why Indian and Arabian muskets of the 19thC were still matchlocks, nothing really to go wrong with them mechanically and if it did it was easy to repair. I have looked at trade muskets and the form hasn't really changed for a long time, even the Hudson's Bay Company trade muskets of the late 17th early 18thC don't look that dissimilar to this one. I suppose if you have something that works why change it.
My Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 17th December 2017, 04:33 AM

Hi Norman.

Now that is an interesting gun. And as Fernando mentions, a bit of a riddle.
The overall profile and hardware of this gun look very similar to the English made trade guns exported to North America by the thousands, and sold by companies such as Hudson Bay and others, as you noted. Sometimes referred to as a "hardware store" gun. Plain and rugged for the early North American frontier. Your's looks very similar to ones from the late 18th to the first half of the 19th Century that were so popular during the North American fur trade period. And as you noted, there was little change in these guns for a long period. It seems most were traded to the North American Indians. The Indians would even paint the stocks, usually blue or red. Sometimes even painting a decoration on top of that in a vine pattern. I thought of this when you mentioned the "orange" stock. LOL The locks were usually English made and the barrels (made in various lengths) were often of Belgium make.

Now the Riddle: The 1904 and latter proof date on the barrel paints a different picture than above. While the gun shows definate use, it appears to be in reasonable condition. This could be one of the earlier variations of the trade guns sent to South Africa during the first half of the 20th Century, utilizing surplus parts - as was often the case. If so, it does not surprise me it ended up in your neck of the woods. LOl The orange-ish stock stain is a mystery to me. But all of the original South African trade guns I've seen look different. The stocks look more like European or North American 1860's. This gun looks like a knock off of the early 19th Century. Curious.

Rick

fernando · 17th December 2017, 02:34 PM

I don't recall where in my imense (?) library you can read that, Portuguese flintlock trade "Lazarinas" were exported to Africa (Angola) with a reddish paint in their stocks, aledgedly to prevent them from wood worms.

Norman McCormick · 17th December 2017, 03:14 PM

Hi Rick and Fernando,
The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

colin henshaw · 17th December 2017, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Rick and Fernando,
The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman - I think the orange paint was put on at time of manufacture to make the muskets more appealing to the natives. I've seen pictures of trade muskets in an African weapons book somewhere, and the stocks were painted red. I had a trade musket myself several years ago almost identical to yours (long since sold), and as I recall the stock is made of beechwood in two parts with the join halfway along the barrel, which can work apart over time... Maybe the paint was also meant to cover up imperfections ?

Regards,
Colin

rickystl · 17th December 2017, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Rick and Fernando,
The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman.

Yes, if you can remove the barrel, that might give us additional clues. I'm loosely wondering if the 1904 stamp might possibly be a re-stamp approval of an older surplus barrel ?

A question: It appears the breech plug tang screw enters from the top. Correct ?
If it is determined the orange paint was not original to the gun, and is a later 20th Century addition, I don't see any reason to not remove it. Nothing to lose.

Rick

Norman McCormick · 17th December 2017, 05:34 PM

Hi Colin and Rick,
Have removed the barrel and there some additional marks but I guess there are just initials, no earlier proved marks. Rick the barrel plug tang screw does enter from the top. Colin the stock is all one piece and you might be right about the orange being done for export but I can't find any evidence to determine yes or no and I must admit it's a pretty awful paint job but who knows.
Thanks to you both for your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

David R · 17th December 2017, 05:53 PM

Hiya Rick, I think you just solved a bit of a mystery for me. I have had this gun lock knocking around for years, and assumed it was Balkan in origin.....

rickystl · 18th December 2017, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Colin and Rick,
Have removed the barrel and there some additional marks but I guess there are just initials, no earlier proved marks. Rick the barrel plug tang screw does enter from the top. Colin the stock is all one piece and you might be right about the orange being done for export but I can't find any evidence to determine yes or no and I must admit it's a pretty awful paint job but who knows.
Thanks to you both for your continued interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Colin

Hmmmm. These additional stamps under the barrel don't seem to help us. But then, my knowledge of markings is very limited. As long as you have the barrel off, could you post a couple of pics of the muzzle end and the octagon section of the barrel ? I'm assuming the barrel is octagon at the breech, fading to round ? How long is the barrel itself ? I know, I'm just full of questions here. LOL
OK. So the breech plug screw on this gun enters from the top, and probably threads into the trigger plate itself. This is a later feature. On the earlier guns the breech plug screw would enter from the bottom securing the front of the trigger guard and threaded into the breech plug tang.
Hard to believe there was a market for smooth bore fowler barrels at that late of date. But the proof mark is there. Hmmm. Maybe Britian was still making these barrels for hobbyist/sporting use (?) Possibly someone had this gun made utilizing old parts and adding a new barrel (then) for sport shooting ? Just speculating. With that photo of the ramrod, it is obvious the orange paint was added later. Possible for some decorative purpose as you mentioned earlier.
I'm starting to think this gun never left the Continent. If it were not for the late proof mark date (and the orange paint) the entire gun looks just like many of the trade guns exported to North America during the first half of the 19th Century.

Rick

rickystl · 17th December 2017, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I don't recall where in my imense (?) library you can read that, Portuguese flintlock trade "Lazarinas" were exported to Africa (Angola) with a reddish paint in their stocks, aledgedly to prevent them from wood worms.

It is known that many of the early British sea service muskets had the stocks and barrels painted black to help protect against the salt sea air.

Here is one of those trade locks I believe was used with those "Lazarinas". It's a crude copy of the Portugese locks.

Rick

fernando · 17th December 2017, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... It is known that many of the early British sea service muskets had the stocks and barrels painted black to help protect against the salt sea air.

That being a different issue. Lazarinas were painted with a stuff to resist African weather, not sea air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

... Here is one of those trade locks I believe was used with those "Lazarinas". It's a crude copy of the Portugese locks...

Rather crude indeed. It lacks expression.
But say Rick, this is not a(nother) replica, is it ?

fernando · 17th December 2017, 08:15 PM

One (three screw) Lazarina lock plate, shown in "As Armas e os Barões" by Eduado Nobre.

.

rickystl · 18th December 2017, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

One (three screw) Lazarina lock plate, shown in "As Armas e os Barões" by Eduado Nobre.

.

Ohhhh......I wish that gun were in my collection. Notice the lock similarities. LOL

Rick

17th December 2017, 03:14 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Rick and Fernando, The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

17th December 2017, 05:34 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Colin and Rick, Have removed the barrel and there some additional marks but I guess there are just initials, no earlier proved marks. Rick the barrel plug tang screw does enter from the top. Colin the stock is all one piece and you might be right about the orange being done for export but I can't find any evidence to determine yes or no and I must admit it's a pretty awful paint job but who knows. Thanks to you both for your continued interest. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

17th December 2017, 05:53 PM	#8
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	Hiya Rick, I think you just solved a bit of a mystery for me. I have had this gun lock knocking around for years, and assumed it was Balkan in origin..... Attached Images

17th December 2017, 08:15 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	With Norman's permit One (three screw) Lazarina lock plate, shown in "As Armas e os Barões" by Eduado Nobre. . Attached Images

16th December 2017, 11:15 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hi Fernando, Yeh, I suppose that's why Indian and Arabian muskets of the 19thC were still matchlocks, nothing really to go wrong with them mechanically and if it did it was easy to repair. I have looked at trade muskets and the form hasn't really changed for a long time, even the Hudson's Bay Company trade muskets of the late 17th early 18thC don't look that dissimilar to this one. I suppose if you have something that works why change it. My Regards, Norman.

17th December 2017, 04:33 AM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hi Norman. Now that is an interesting gun. And as Fernando mentions, a bit of a riddle. The overall profile and hardware of this gun look very similar to the English made trade guns exported to North America by the thousands, and sold by companies such as Hudson Bay and others, as you noted. Sometimes referred to as a "hardware store" gun. Plain and rugged for the early North American frontier. Your's looks very similar to ones from the late 18th to the first half of the 19th Century that were so popular during the North American fur trade period. And as you noted, there was little change in these guns for a long period. It seems most were traded to the North American Indians. The Indians would even paint the stocks, usually blue or red. Sometimes even painting a decoration on top of that in a vine pattern. I thought of this when you mentioned the "orange" stock. LOL The locks were usually English made and the barrels (made in various lengths) were often of Belgium make. Now the Riddle: The 1904 and latter proof date on the barrel paints a different picture than above. While the gun shows definate use, it appears to be in reasonable condition. This could be one of the earlier variations of the trade guns sent to South Africa during the first half of the 20th Century, utilizing surplus parts - as was often the case. If so, it does not surprise me it ended up in your neck of the woods. LOl The orange-ish stock stain is a mystery to me. But all of the original South African trade guns I've seen look different. The stocks look more like European or North American 1860's. This gun looks like a knock off of the early 19th Century. Curious. Rick

17th December 2017, 02:34 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I don't recall where in my imense (?) library you can read that, Portuguese flintlock trade "Lazarinas" were exported to Africa (Angola) with a reddish paint in their stocks, aledgedly to prevent them from wood worms.