Flintlock Musket Advice Required

fernando · 16th December 2017, 06:27 PM

Youv'e got a riddle there, Norman.
I may be completely off track but, this lock being flint, the barrel has the marks of Birmingham Proof house and inspection Viewed, implemented as 1904

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Then the LONDON font would be consistent

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Norman McCormick · 16th December 2017, 07:54 PM

Hi Colin and Fernando,
Thanks for your replies.The BP and the BV certainly point to 1904 and onwards. I am surprised that trade firearms may have been flintlocks and not percussion locks at that late date but I guess that not having to have percussion caps would be a plus when you can't just pop into the local gunsmith for supplies. Thanks again,
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. A better close up of marks inside the lock.

fernando · 16th December 2017, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

...but I guess that not having to have percussion caps would be a plus when you can't just pop into the local gunsmith for supplies...

Yes, the idea of not depending from things you can't make yourself. They say that Samuel Colt was resistant to change production of his revolvers from cap & ball to complete cartridges because, down in the prairie, one could always get hold of some lead and cast his own bullets, whereas he couldn't cast his cartridges.
Not so much of an analogy, but i felt like telling this (true) story

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Norman McCormick · 16th December 2017, 11:15 PM

Hi Fernando,
Yeh, I suppose that's why Indian and Arabian muskets of the 19thC were still matchlocks, nothing really to go wrong with them mechanically and if it did it was easy to repair. I have looked at trade muskets and the form hasn't really changed for a long time, even the Hudson's Bay Company trade muskets of the late 17th early 18thC don't look that dissimilar to this one. I suppose if you have something that works why change it.
My Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 17th December 2017, 04:33 AM

Hi Norman.

Now that is an interesting gun. And as Fernando mentions, a bit of a riddle.
The overall profile and hardware of this gun look very similar to the English made trade guns exported to North America by the thousands, and sold by companies such as Hudson Bay and others, as you noted. Sometimes referred to as a "hardware store" gun. Plain and rugged for the early North American frontier. Your's looks very similar to ones from the late 18th to the first half of the 19th Century that were so popular during the North American fur trade period. And as you noted, there was little change in these guns for a long period. It seems most were traded to the North American Indians. The Indians would even paint the stocks, usually blue or red. Sometimes even painting a decoration on top of that in a vine pattern. I thought of this when you mentioned the "orange" stock. LOL The locks were usually English made and the barrels (made in various lengths) were often of Belgium make.

Now the Riddle: The 1904 and latter proof date on the barrel paints a different picture than above. While the gun shows definate use, it appears to be in reasonable condition. This could be one of the earlier variations of the trade guns sent to South Africa during the first half of the 20th Century, utilizing surplus parts - as was often the case. If so, it does not surprise me it ended up in your neck of the woods. LOl The orange-ish stock stain is a mystery to me. But all of the original South African trade guns I've seen look different. The stocks look more like European or North American 1860's. This gun looks like a knock off of the early 19th Century. Curious.

Rick

fernando · 17th December 2017, 02:34 PM

I don't recall where in my imense (?) library you can read that, Portuguese flintlock trade "Lazarinas" were exported to Africa (Angola) with a reddish paint in their stocks, aledgedly to prevent them from wood worms.

Norman McCormick · 17th December 2017, 03:14 PM

Hi Rick and Fernando,
The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 17th December 2017, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I don't recall where in my imense (?) library you can read that, Portuguese flintlock trade "Lazarinas" were exported to Africa (Angola) with a reddish paint in their stocks, aledgedly to prevent them from wood worms.

It is known that many of the early British sea service muskets had the stocks and barrels painted black to help protect against the salt sea air.

Here is one of those trade locks I believe was used with those "Lazarinas". It's a crude copy of the Portugese locks.

Rick

16th December 2017, 07:54 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Colin and Fernando, Thanks for your replies.The BP and the BV certainly point to 1904 and onwards. I am surprised that trade firearms may have been flintlocks and not percussion locks at that late date but I guess that not having to have percussion caps would be a plus when you can't just pop into the local gunsmith for supplies. Thanks again, My Regards, Norman. P.S. A better close up of marks inside the lock. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 16th December 2017 at 08:08 PM.

17th December 2017, 03:14 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Rick and Fernando, The orange hue is thick paint, not a stain, of a particular virulent hue so as far as I can ascertain definitely modern and chemical and not earth colours. I had thought that some moron had thought the orange would go better with their sense of decor as all of us no doubt have come across perfectly good items sullied usually with gold and silver paint used to 'enhance' their appearance. I will attempt to remove the barrel from the stock over the coming days and maybe there might be more info underneath the barrel. I have to say as it looks like it is an early 20thC piece I've got to get rid of that orange. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

16th December 2017, 06:27 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Youv'e got a riddle there, Norman. I may be completely off track but, this lock being flint, the barrel has the marks of Birmingham Proof house and inspection Viewed, implemented as 1904 . Then the LONDON font would be consistent .

16th December 2017, 11:15 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Fernando, Yeh, I suppose that's why Indian and Arabian muskets of the 19thC were still matchlocks, nothing really to go wrong with them mechanically and if it did it was easy to repair. I have looked at trade muskets and the form hasn't really changed for a long time, even the Hudson's Bay Company trade muskets of the late 17th early 18thC don't look that dissimilar to this one. I suppose if you have something that works why change it. My Regards, Norman.

17th December 2017, 04:33 AM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,632	Hi Norman. Now that is an interesting gun. And as Fernando mentions, a bit of a riddle. The overall profile and hardware of this gun look very similar to the English made trade guns exported to North America by the thousands, and sold by companies such as Hudson Bay and others, as you noted. Sometimes referred to as a "hardware store" gun. Plain and rugged for the early North American frontier. Your's looks very similar to ones from the late 18th to the first half of the 19th Century that were so popular during the North American fur trade period. And as you noted, there was little change in these guns for a long period. It seems most were traded to the North American Indians. The Indians would even paint the stocks, usually blue or red. Sometimes even painting a decoration on top of that in a vine pattern. I thought of this when you mentioned the "orange" stock. LOL The locks were usually English made and the barrels (made in various lengths) were often of Belgium make. Now the Riddle: The 1904 and latter proof date on the barrel paints a different picture than above. While the gun shows definate use, it appears to be in reasonable condition. This could be one of the earlier variations of the trade guns sent to South Africa during the first half of the 20th Century, utilizing surplus parts - as was often the case. If so, it does not surprise me it ended up in your neck of the woods. LOl The orange-ish stock stain is a mystery to me. But all of the original South African trade guns I've seen look different. The stocks look more like European or North American 1860's. This gun looks like a knock off of the early 19th Century. Curious. Rick

17th December 2017, 02:34 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I don't recall where in my imense (?) library you can read that, Portuguese flintlock trade "Lazarinas" were exported to Africa (Angola) with a reddish paint in their stocks, aledgedly to prevent them from wood worms.