medieval sword with rune script.

cornelistromp · 11th December 2017, 03:40 PM

Hi mark,

great input thank you, also good examples of similar types of swords and similar decorations, amazing!

all I know is that the sword comes from a Hungarian collection and according to the collector it was in his possession for over 20 years, on the sword was mentioned wisiqradi, I do not know if this is the name of a collection or if it is a location where it was found.

I was also thinking of an Eastern European or Baltic origin.

ps: did you see the snake/mythical animal somewhere before?

thanks+vbw
Jasper

Reventlov · 14th December 2017, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

all I know is that the sword comes from a Hungarian collection and according to the collector it was in his possession for over 20 years, on the sword was mentioned wisiqradi, I do not know if this is the name of a collection or if it is a location where it was found.

I was also thinking of an Eastern European or Baltic origin.

ps: did you see the snake/mythical animal somewhere before?

Hungary... not so far off then! Searching for more comparisons from Hungary has not turned up anything interesting though. "Wisigradi" as in Visegrád perhaps?

Marks of zigzags and wavy lines are not so uncommon, but I can't think of anything that quite compares to the "head" of the snake here...

I think the pommel itself is a little unusual/unexpected; I'll try to post soon some examples that have similar pommels yet differ in all other details.

cornelistromp · 14th December 2017, 09:11 AM

yes I can understand that, you would probably expect a H-pommel in the period 1250-1350.Like on the few surviving examples
The pommel of above sword is a subtype of H, of type H1, oval in shape instead of round.
This pommel was common and spread in Europe from 1350-1425, mostly on hand-and-a-half and two-hand swords and of course in combination with the blade forms that were used during this period, often stabbingblades fe XVIa, XVII
nonetheless, this oval pommel variation can be seen earlier, already in 13thC art , on early frescoes in Eastern Europe. fe. Zica Monestry 1220 in Serbia and 2 others in Kosovo.

I found this pommel in combination with XII blade, a almost similar recess I have seen on a type of Z pommel.
it would be interesting to see a sword with a H1 pommel with a similar recess.

best,
Jasper

Reventlov · 23rd December 2017, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

nonetheless, this oval pommel variation can be seen earlier, already in 13thC art , on early frescoes in Eastern Europe. fe. Zica Monestry 1220 in Serbia and 2 others in Kosovo.

I found this pommel in combination with XII blade, a almost similar recess I have seen on a type of Z pommel.
it would be interesting to see a sword with a H1 pommel with a similar recess

Hello again Jasper,
Finally I have time to follow up properly (holiday season!)... What particularly struck me about the shape of the pommel is the recess plus the central nub - I have the impression the latter is not too common, particularly prior to the 1400s, when they start to appear more on type XV and XVIII arming swords? I am very curious to see any of these relevant comparisons you have found.

I have found one possible example of a similar H1 pommel, but the line drawing is not enough to say for sure... it is in the Casimir Pulaski Museum, in Poland again! The "eastern European" trend is holding strong.

Also from Poland is a sword in Malbork Castle... but this has been determined to be a FAKE! (see Zabinski, Stepinski, "A sword from Gdansk...")

Apart from these, the only comparison that came to mind is a group of XIIIa's that greatly resemble each other: narrow blades, thin tangs, long thin crosses, and disk pommels with the recess/nub. Below is one of these from the museum in Vienna, there are couple others in museums and circulating in recent auctions.

Happy holidays,
Mark

cornelistromp · 25th December 2017, 10:39 AM

Hi Mark, thank you for this great information and attachment's.

The pommel of the sword A2059in KHM in Vienna has great similarities, This sword is dated from the second half of the 14th century.
On the basis of the few remaining specimens and lack of information it is unfortunately not possible to indicate a time span for the pommel with recess with hub and certainly not for a particular geographic area.

quote Oakeshott and certainly apply to my dating's:
any date any expert may assign to a medieval sword can at best be speculative, and at worst is absurd. ROMS p3

very best wishes,

Jasper

11th December 2017, 03:40 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi mark, great input thank you, also good examples of similar types of swords and similar decorations, amazing! all I know is that the sword comes from a Hungarian collection and according to the collector it was in his possession for over 20 years, on the sword was mentioned wisiqradi, I do not know if this is the name of a collection or if it is a location where it was found. I was also thinking of an Eastern European or Baltic origin. ps: did you see the snake/mythical animal somewhere before? thanks+vbw Jasper Attached Images

14th December 2017, 09:11 AM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes I can understand that, you would probably expect a H-pommel in the period 1250-1350.Like on the few surviving examples The pommel of above sword is a subtype of H, of type H1, oval in shape instead of round. This pommel was common and spread in Europe from 1350-1425, mostly on hand-and-a-half and two-hand swords and of course in combination with the blade forms that were used during this period, often stabbingblades fe XVIa, XVII nonetheless, this oval pommel variation can be seen earlier, already in 13thC art , on early frescoes in Eastern Europe. fe. Zica Monestry 1220 in Serbia and 2 others in Kosovo. I found this pommel in combination with XII blade, a almost similar recess I have seen on a type of Z pommel. it would be interesting to see a sword with a H1 pommel with a similar recess. best, Jasper Last edited by cornelistromp; 14th December 2017 at 03:01 PM.

25th December 2017, 10:39 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Mark, thank you for this great information and attachment's. The pommel of the sword A2059in KHM in Vienna has great similarities, This sword is dated from the second half of the 14th century. On the basis of the few remaining specimens and lack of information it is unfortunately not possible to indicate a time span for the pommel with recess with hub and certainly not for a particular geographic area. quote Oakeshott and certainly apply to my dating's: any date any expert may assign to a medieval sword can at best be speculative, and at worst is absurd. ROMS p3 very best wishes, Jasper Attached Images