The fleur de lis ... in a wider spectrum

[Jim McDougall]

Its all in perception. While I see the thread on the FDL here as extremely informational, especially with the initial material on this symbol in use in Portugal indeed the topic could be perceived by some as historical or heraldic, and perhaps not related to weapons.

However, indeed the discussion on the FDL is pertinent toward weaponry as armorial bearings are among the varied symbolism which might be represented using this particular symbol. We have established in some of the discussions mentioned on other threads that actually while the FDL is almost instantly associated with France, it was clearly used in other contexts in many representations.

In some discussions, these aspects of variation might be perceived as distracting in examination of a particular weapon, despite those aspects being factors in evaluating the proper context as applied.

It does seem that in discussions, those reading will often see elements brought in as relevant or perhaps not, just as the character of the discussion may seem one way or another.

I think sometimes certain details can sometimes be lost when important material concerned on a topic is amidst a discussion under another heading and as in this case, it is more directly accessible.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Its all in perception.

If i may Jim, not so in perception, judging by your granting it different perspectives yourself. But i did my best, atempting that this topic comprehension was granted by its title.
But thinking of perception, i take it for me that it resides in the same tenure as discernment; a major key to open the antechamber of lucidity, with which one perceives the degree of distraction (or detraction as per #7) and such other fluctuations.

Best

[Victrix]

Perhaps someone familiar with sword makers’ marks from Toledo can explain why one mark associated with Juan Martinez is what appears to be a fleur-de-lis? Did he have French origins or does it symbolize something other than France? Some argue that this was not his mark, but some other unknown blade smith. What differentiates this mark from Martinez’s often copied half moon mark?

http://rcin.org.pl/Content/54821/WA3...uan-Mart_I.pdf

[fernando]

Hi Victrix,
As exposed in current discussions, it is only that the fleur-de-lis achieved more popularity in France and not that it necessarily has to do only with that nation.
In the case of Spanish sword smiths, as in this case, you may relate such symbol with the heraldry of Spain, where the arms of the Bourbons figure in the Spanish flag.
Concerning the for-the-lis symbol in Juan Martinez blades, there is old solid evidence that he (also) used this mark. Whether it was his personal symbol, a quality seal or the mark of his status of ESPADERO DEL REY, a honorific title for smiths granted by the crown, is subject of discussion held in THIS THREAD, namely in post #3.


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[Victrix]

Thank you Fernando, that’s most helpful. I take it that this coat of arms for Spain dates to around the year 1700 when Philip, Duke of Anjou became king Philip V of Spain?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

Thank you Fernando, that’s most helpful. I take it that this coat of arms for Spain dates to around the year 1700 when Philip, Duke of Anjou became king Philip V of Spain?

It seems plausible, although the Bourbons also reigned in Navarra in a prior century. But the flag not being a well succeeded example, i would remind that Jehan Lermite in his "Le passetemps", lists a number of Toledo smiths and his marks in a rather explicit manner, and mentions that Juan Martinez has marked his blades with a crowned fleur de liz before using other symbols. Lermite has been in Toledo around 1600.

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[Victrix]

Many thanks, Fernando. Fascinating subject. It was a pleasant surprise to see the punzones de espadero in the other post you linked to. The statue at the top of this thread is fantastic!