Shotley Bridge swordmakers

urbanspaceman · 20th November 2017, 02:41 PM

Bezdek doesn't list Richard Oley as working in Birmingham, I got that info from a source that needs to be verified (this week at SB again) unless anyone can help.

I need to find details of this competition: surely some record must have been kept somewhere. Who sponsored it? Was it the Tower? Was it the London Cutlers? Hmmm! Board of Ordnance is obviously favourite.

Nicholas Oley and all the Oleys interviewed in the 18/1900s insisted the story of the blade in the hat was true (well they would, wouldn't they?). My question is: what sort of a hat was it that could retain that degree of spring tension; unless the coil was fastened then placed in the hat... more likely. It was said a vice was needed to uncoil it and someone nearly lost their fingers trying.

Re. the chest of swords discovered in the 1850s: the museum denies all knowledge of them, so I am waiting on the return of the family at this week's end; maybe they are still hidden in the Priest Hole.

It's all slow but definitely real progress I feel.

urbanspaceman · 23rd November 2017, 01:57 PM

No additional knowledge to report; just a note to say that Alnwick Castle and their incorporated Northumberland Fusiliers Museum have no Shotley bridge swords to offer me.
The Bowes Museum deny all knowledge of the bequest of a chest of SB swords, destined for a Jacobite militia, so the pertinent family are investigating.
I'm continuing to explore all public and private collections.
I'm waiting to access the SB village archives any day now.
Meantime, I'm getting all my information into a chronological order.
Meantime also, the Durham County Council are proceeding with their plan to link the length of the Derwent Valley's history to SB which is conveniently in the middle and was the beginning of the iron and steel industry anyway. They have hopes for a permanent exhibition based in the village; so perhaps this will help bring swords out of hiding (there are a lot of SB swords in private ownership around this area) and we can maybe establish a definite indication of markings, dates and styles.

Hotspur · 23rd November 2017, 04:10 PM

Ummm, if the Shotley Bridge makers were of the families migrating from Solingen, one can be fairly certain no swords were made and sold to a sympathizer/patron of a Jacobite militia (religious contradictions).

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman · 23rd November 2017, 10:44 PM

I have to disagree for two - possibly three - reasons:
Primarily, the smiths did not (ostensibly) work for themselves, they were under contract, first to the initial syndicate, later to the Blade Bank, finally to Cotesworth: a very greedy, powerful and influential local merchant who would have sold his Granny as the saying goes. It was not until the end of the first quarter that the Oleys became autonomous.
Two, their immediate neighbour was the Earl of Derwentwater, an extremely powerful Jacobite. Should they have refused him, yet continued to supply the government, he could have wiped out the entire Shotley Bridge community and been back in time for breakfast, and no-one could have lifted a finger to help nor complained about it afterwards.
Except possibly Blackett, who was the Sherriff of Newcastle and a government supporter. But he was also an opportunist and a survivor: just like the entire population of Newcastle, who have been on whatever side is winning since the days of the Romans. Living on a border like ours, people quickly learned to keep their head's down, or lose them - ultimately, as the Earl did... on Tower Hill in 1716!
The chest of swords in question was waiting for a group of Jacobite supporters a few miles south of Newcastle, hidden in a Priest Hole; and probably with the defeat of Derwentwater, never retrieved. My knowledge of this area during this period is sketchy at best, but I will know more when I speak more with the family who own the Priest Hole, who's unbroken lineage goes back to pre. Norman times.
It's also quite possible the German smiths were forging for Derwentwater surreptitiously; it may account for the huge amounts of stock they were using and supposedly unable to pay for; perhaps it was all subterfuge. Tucked away up in the valley, they could easily have been playing both sides.
Rotterdam (for Swedish and Remscheid steel imports) was the bigger problem when it came to religious politics, hence possibly their reliance on Hayward's stock and his usurious prices.
Finally, it has to be said, when it comes down to buttering one's bread, and given the labour problems and religious favouritism back in Solingen, it definitely inspires a great degree of pragmatism.

Hotspur · 23rd November 2017, 11:01 PM

That reads as a decent novel

Show me the money!

Cheers

GC

urbanspaceman · 23rd November 2017, 11:46 PM

Yes, the money!
There are three things going-on here on Tyneside:
one, I'm trying to compile the definitive account of the SB swordmakers;
two, there is a plan afoot to create a permanent display/exhibition/attraction in Shotley Bridge;
three, a novelist is setting a story around the Solingen immigrants.
Actually, four things:
a local heritage-memories/local-history lecturer is planning a new program based on the - yes, you've guessed it - SB swordmakers.
Naturally, where two women and one county council are involved, guess who is doing all the donkey-work?
That's not true really.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th November 2017, 03:40 PM

That is quite an amazing development Keith.

I agree to much of your reasons why Shotley was not supplying the Jacobites although it is a protracted group who also seeded much of the border riever activity or at least the Moss Troopers who were another group on the border lands very much on the Durham Northumberland doorstep.

Generally the Shotley people will have wanted to retain their heads! and with Newcastle bristling with troops they certainly had to keep their heads down.

I think the smuggling is another league and seen as semi allowable and in the case of the Shotley team they got away with that by having people in high places... I also suspect the ruse of the hollow blades was half myth and half true since the word "fuller" before 1850 was "hollow". A sort of deliberate subterfuge that fitted the mix-up nicely.

In the situation of what was stamped on which blades I have to note that Shotley did not use the bushy tail fox and that was the sole domain of Birmingham although it may possibly have become mixed up in a number of blades out of Hounslow although if evidence is available I would be ready to concede it may have been used elsewhere...or traded. Usually it was with the addition of SH stamped in the body of the Fox; Samuel Harvey Snr or his son Samuel...

Shotley Bridge used the hammered and chiseled Passau Wolf in stick form either applied there or on smuggled Solingen blades or both.

I say this with the proviso that anything can happen in this story and I am ready to believe what transpires ! The Duck and Crossed Sausages even !!

20th November 2017, 02:41 PM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Brummy Oley Bezdek doesn't list Richard Oley as working in Birmingham, I got that info from a source that needs to be verified (this week at SB again) unless anyone can help. I need to find details of this competition: surely some record must have been kept somewhere. Who sponsored it? Was it the Tower? Was it the London Cutlers? Hmmm! Board of Ordnance is obviously favourite. Nicholas Oley and all the Oleys interviewed in the 18/1900s insisted the story of the blade in the hat was true (well they would, wouldn't they?). My question is: what sort of a hat was it that could retain that degree of spring tension; unless the coil was fastened then placed in the hat... more likely. It was said a vice was needed to uncoil it and someone nearly lost their fingers trying. Re. the chest of swords discovered in the 1850s: the museum denies all knowledge of them, so I am waiting on the return of the family at this week's end; maybe they are still hidden in the Priest Hole. It's all slow but definitely real progress I feel.

23rd November 2017, 01:57 PM	#2
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	update No additional knowledge to report; just a note to say that Alnwick Castle and their incorporated Northumberland Fusiliers Museum have no Shotley bridge swords to offer me. The Bowes Museum deny all knowledge of the bequest of a chest of SB swords, destined for a Jacobite militia, so the pertinent family are investigating. I'm continuing to explore all public and private collections. I'm waiting to access the SB village archives any day now. Meantime, I'm getting all my information into a chronological order. Meantime also, the Durham County Council are proceeding with their plan to link the length of the Derwent Valley's history to SB which is conveniently in the middle and was the beginning of the iron and steel industry anyway. They have hopes for a permanent exhibition based in the village; so perhaps this will help bring swords out of hiding (there are a lot of SB swords in private ownership around this area) and we can maybe establish a definite indication of markings, dates and styles.

23rd November 2017, 10:44 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Holy Orders I have to disagree for two - possibly three - reasons: Primarily, the smiths did not (ostensibly) work for themselves, they were under contract, first to the initial syndicate, later to the Blade Bank, finally to Cotesworth: a very greedy, powerful and influential local merchant who would have sold his Granny as the saying goes. It was not until the end of the first quarter that the Oleys became autonomous. Two, their immediate neighbour was the Earl of Derwentwater, an extremely powerful Jacobite. Should they have refused him, yet continued to supply the government, he could have wiped out the entire Shotley Bridge community and been back in time for breakfast, and no-one could have lifted a finger to help nor complained about it afterwards. Except possibly Blackett, who was the Sherriff of Newcastle and a government supporter. But he was also an opportunist and a survivor: just like the entire population of Newcastle, who have been on whatever side is winning since the days of the Romans. Living on a border like ours, people quickly learned to keep their head's down, or lose them - ultimately, as the Earl did... on Tower Hill in 1716! The chest of swords in question was waiting for a group of Jacobite supporters a few miles south of Newcastle, hidden in a Priest Hole; and probably with the defeat of Derwentwater, never retrieved. My knowledge of this area during this period is sketchy at best, but I will know more when I speak more with the family who own the Priest Hole, who's unbroken lineage goes back to pre. Norman times. It's also quite possible the German smiths were forging for Derwentwater surreptitiously; it may account for the huge amounts of stock they were using and supposedly unable to pay for; perhaps it was all subterfuge. Tucked away up in the valley, they could easily have been playing both sides. Rotterdam (for Swedish and Remscheid steel imports) was the bigger problem when it came to religious politics, hence possibly their reliance on Hayward's stock and his usurious prices. Finally, it has to be said, when it comes down to buttering one's bread, and given the labour problems and religious favouritism back in Solingen, it definitely inspires a great degree of pragmatism.

23rd November 2017, 11:46 PM	#6
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	check's in the post Yes, the money! There are three things going-on here on Tyneside: one, I'm trying to compile the definitive account of the SB swordmakers; two, there is a plan afoot to create a permanent display/exhibition/attraction in Shotley Bridge; three, a novelist is setting a story around the Solingen immigrants. Actually, four things: a local heritage-memories/local-history lecturer is planning a new program based on the - yes, you've guessed it - SB swordmakers. Naturally, where two women and one county council are involved, guess who is doing all the donkey-work? That's not true really.

23rd November 2017, 04:10 PM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 512	Ummm, if the Shotley Bridge makers were of the families migrating from Solingen, one can be fairly certain no swords were made and sold to a sympathizer/patron of a Jacobite militia (religious contradictions). Cheers GC

23rd November 2017, 11:01 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 512	That reads as a decent novel Show me the money! Cheers GC

24th November 2017, 03:40 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	That is quite an amazing development Keith. I agree to much of your reasons why Shotley was not supplying the Jacobites although it is a protracted group who also seeded much of the border riever activity or at least the Moss Troopers who were another group on the border lands very much on the Durham Northumberland doorstep. Generally the Shotley people will have wanted to retain their heads! and with Newcastle bristling with troops they certainly had to keep their heads down. I think the smuggling is another league and seen as semi allowable and in the case of the Shotley team they got away with that by having people in high places... I also suspect the ruse of the hollow blades was half myth and half true since the word "fuller" before 1850 was "hollow". A sort of deliberate subterfuge that fitted the mix-up nicely. In the situation of what was stamped on which blades I have to note that Shotley did not use the bushy tail fox and that was the sole domain of Birmingham although it may possibly have become mixed up in a number of blades out of Hounslow although if evidence is available I would be ready to concede it may have been used elsewhere...or traded. Usually it was with the addition of SH stamped in the body of the Fox; Samuel Harvey Snr or his son Samuel... Shotley Bridge used the hammered and chiseled Passau Wolf in stick form either applied there or on smuggled Solingen blades or both. I say this with the proviso that anything can happen in this story and I am ready to believe what transpires ! The Duck and Crossed Sausages even !!