A flintlock pistol ... with a Portuguese lock.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by kronckew

british sea service pistols frequently had belt hooks, might this be a naval pistol?

Belt hooks used to abound in the Peninsula; not necessarily naval ... at all.
I have (and had) several examples in my little collection, monuted in the most diverse gun types.

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[rickystl]

Hi Fernando.

Well, it's still a good looking pistol. Especially that wonderful lock !!
Had I seen this pistol, even if I had known the correct analysis above, if the price was reasonable, I would have bought it anyway just to get the lock for my lock collection. LOL The brass hardware I would keep for a later unforseen project. LOL But that's just me. Again, very cool lock.

While belt hooks were used on pistols all over Europe, they did seem to be especially popular on the Peninsula, as you mention. You see them on pistols and carbine length long guns both military and civilian of all types.

Again, really nice lock on that pistol.

Rick

[fernando]

Thank you for words Rick.
Indeed the lock is the great asset. Made by a master recognized by local arms historians. According to the Viscount de Villarinho de São Romão (1835), it was Bartholomeu Gomes "who gave the greatest enlightening in musketry".
Price, considering the lock, was not bad ... but not too good either; swapped with a French 1777 musket.
Concerning belt hooks, you know i could almost swear i saw them mounted in full size shoulder guns ?. And by the way, take a look at the 6th picture in post #17; a part of a Spanish luxury hunting escopeta. Istn't that the hole for a belt hook ?


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[Oliver Pinchot]

Congratulations, Fernando!
Certainly an important addition to your collection and
a benefit to the Forum

[fernando]

Thank you so much, Oliver.

[rickystl]

Hi Fernando.

Frames 6 and 7 do indeed look like there were belt hooks attached at some point.
I don't recall seeing any belt hooks on full-size shoulder muskets. And there would be no need for one since the heavy muskets were equiped with shoulder slings. The only regulation belt hook I can recall was on the Spanish Light Weight Military Escopeda. And they were longer than the hooks for pistols.
I also believe that many of these guns were not assembled with belt hooks, bur added later by their owners.

Here is a Spanish and English pistol with belt hooks added later sometime back in the period. The hook on the Spanish pistol looks a bit crude compared to the rest of the gun. The hook on the English pistol, while well done, looks like it was added later since the engraving does not match with the rest of the pistol.

They seem so common on Spanish pistols that I see more of them with belt hooks than not.

Rick

[Philip]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Fernando.

Well, it's still a good looking pistol. Especially that wonderful lock !!
Had I seen this pistol, even if I had known the correct analysis above, if the price was reasonable, I would have bought it anyway just to get the lock for my lock collection. LOL The brass hardware I would keep for a later unforseen project. LOL But that's just me. Again, very cool lock.



Rick

I'd love to have that thing myself, Rick! Look at the chiseling; it has suffered from wear and exposure, but imagine what it looked like when new! Especially appealing, for something made in the second half of the 18th cent., are design elements harking back a century before. Note especially the cock, with its baluster-form stem and jaws that sit at an obtuse angle. Both it and the lockplate profile are so classically Iberian, unaffected by the Frenchification that crept into miquelet lock design in the 18th cent., especially in production for royal patronage.

[fernando]

Obrigado pelas suas palavras, Filipe .
I have just disassemble the barrel; a long story it tells.
Evidence that, as per professor Daehnhardt's appreciation, its ignition orifice has been drilled to lodge a percussioon 'rubber' and later welded back into a flintlock touch hole.
Visible also the faded assembly marks and smiths poinçon; and the traces of having had a seconf fixation to a prior stock.


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[rickystl]

Originally Posted by fernando

Obrigado pelas suas palavras, Filipe .
I have just disassemble the barrel; a long story it tells.
Evidence that, as per professor Daehnhardt's appreciation, its ignition orifice has been drilled to lodge a percussioon 'rubber' and later welded back into a flintlock touch hole.
Visible also the faded assembly marks and smiths poinçon; and the traces of having had a seconf fixation to a prior stock.

Hi Fernando.
OK, yes, you can see where the barrel had a percussion bolster at some point in it's life, then removed. The captive ramrod was probably add when the barrel was converted to percussion.
I'm going to speculate that the barrel and lock were originally from two different guns. And at some point back in the period a new stock was made to accomodate both the barrel and lock. It appears the stock has less wear than the lock and barrel.
For sure, this gun - or at least the lock and barrel - have seen a lot of action. It seems the gun was assembled from various loose parts that were available at the moment. What a story this gun could tell.

Rick

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[fernando]

Originally Posted by rickystl

...I'm going to speculate that the barrel and lock were originally from two different guns...

As already stated, the lock and trigger guard once belonged to shoulder (musket) guns.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by Philip

I'd love to have that thing myself, Rick! Look at the chiseling; it has suffered from wear and exposure, but imagine what it looked like when new! Especially appealing, for something made in the second half of the 18th cent., are design elements harking back a century before. Note especially the cock, with its baluster-form stem and jaws that sit at an obtuse angle. Both it and the lockplate profile are so classically Iberian, unaffected by the Frenchification that crept into miquelet lock design in the 18th cent., especially in production for royal patronage.

Hi Philip.
Much agree. Even with the wear, it is still well marked and has a wonderful profile. Maybe Fernando can take a couple more pics of the lock as long as it's disassembled ? Would like to see the internals of the lock.
Rick

[Philip]

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Philip.
Much agree. Even with the wear, it is still well marked and has a wonderful profile.
Rick

There's something else I just noticed about the profile of the lockplate. It's the "wasp-waisted" shape that originated and which predominated throughout the 17th cent. in Spain and the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies before the more streamlined French type plate virtually replaced it in 18th-19th cent. Madrid. However, note how the tail, with its rounded terminus, tilts downward at an angle.

This downward tail appears to be a Portuguese variant. There are at least seven examples on Portuguese patilha locks on guns in the exhibit catalog ESPINGARDARIA PORTUGUESA / ARMURERIE LIEGEOISE (Daehnhardt & Gaier, 1975), including a gorgeous chiseled example by Malaquias José da Costa. The da Costa lock, despite its late date (1820) and its English-style anti-friction rollers and Frenchified decorative motifs, is otherwise true to its Iberian roots, even to the long cock jaws at an obtuse angle, baluster stem, and otherwise very conservative proportions.

Looking over the published examples of Spanish locks with Ripoll and "provincial" style plates, I find that the tails tend to just stick out straight, with either rounded or triangular termini. (I'm becoming convinced that the square ends may be trans-Alpine, since you see just about all of these on Austrian or south German-made miquelets, but that's a topic for another thread).

Yes, Fernando, some pics of your lock detached from the gun will be welcomed!

[kronckew]

it looks like the new touch hole was fitted to the barrel and brazed into place with a high copper alloy, which is less destructive to the surrounding steel. obviously strong enough to survive this long. plug may have been loosely threaded & needed sealing in. as they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone

I think that the barrel was originally flint, and then a knapsack or pump was used to screw the chimney or nipple. In the second transformation, what was done was filing the masacote or bombeta, and the ear was left with a very large measure, the original perforation of the percussion. Look at the perfect limits of the filing, and as follows the original form of the masacote or bombeta.

Affectionately. Fernando k

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

There's something else I just noticed about the profile of the lockplate. It's the "wasp-waisted" shape ...However, note how the tail, with its rounded terminus, tilts downward at an angle... This downward tail appears to be a Portuguese variant ...

Do you mean like this other one made by XAVIER DOS REIS in 1758 ...

(From "Prestige de l'armurerie Portugaise")


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[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Do you mean like this other one made by XAVIER DOD RES in 1758 ...

(From "Prestige de l'armurerie Portugaise")


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Yes, exactly.

Your pistol has proved to be a very interesting thing on a number of counts! What a life it has led...