Shotley Bridge swordmakers

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2017, 08:33 PM

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th November 2017, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders.
Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

Salaams Jim and exactly the kind of backup needed just now as the thread enters murky waters... not that we have crystal clarity and as experienced by Kieth on the ground quite a lot of myth and legend mixed with some half truths and a lot of complete nonsense not least the mercury filled hollow blade puzzle..and not with standing that how far he has advanced our understanding of the Shotley situation...A key factor in swordmaking in England at the time.

I was looking at the odd stories on Fullers and how that became muddled but interestingly how it only appears in the mid 19thC in terms used by blacksmiths and presumably sword makers...I wonder did they use the old English Hollows terminology...which would add to the puzzlement in calling blades hollow and of hollow grinding which is completely different~

Using wiki in this regard I note Quote" The term "fuller" is from the Old English fuliere, meaning "one who fulls (pleats) cloth." It is derived from the Latin word fullo. The first recorded use of the term as a blacksmithing tool is from 1864, according to Webster's Dictionary. The term used in historical Europe is largely unknown, and due to the constantly changing nature of language, the popular term also may have varied from generation to generation. King Thrasamund of the Vandals was recorded in a letter to King Theodoric the Ostrogoth, giving thanks for a gift of swords, and refers to the fullers in the blades as simply grooves: "...their centers, hollowed out with beautiful grooves, seem to undulate with worm-like markings; for shadows of such variety you would think the metal was interwoven rather than shining with different colors." The French often use the term goutiere (gutter) or cannelure (channel). The ancient Viking term is unknown. As a verb, the old French term "gutter" meant "to cut small hollows," as in the gutter of a crossbow."Unquote.
Voila!!

urbanspaceman · 12th November 2017, 10:21 PM

Gentlemen, what about my proposition that the hollows were hammered-in and ground smooth? Shotley Bridge nearly went bankrupt paying Den Haydon for stock, so to waste all those grooves' worth of finished steel ground into filings does not make sense. Far better to spend time hammering them out on an anvil - or smuggling them in from Rotterdam. I am sure Solingen would feel the same way, as they were buying their steel from the Swedes. Was a man's time more expensive than steel stock?

That's why I keep banging-on about hammering in the hollows, as maybe there never was a machine anywhere! Otherwise, why not make a one at Shotley Bridge; those guys knew what it looked like, how it worked, and had all the skills and materials needed to build a one.

So far, I am unable to envisage a machine that can grind a gradually tapering groove into the side of a triangular cross-section length of steel; and I'm usually pretty good at that sort of thing. I'll keep trying.

Speaking of steel, something I discovered yesterday was that there were two Bertrams: William and John; I can't find my notes telling me which one was shipwrecked off the mouth of the Tyne. They were both from Remscheid, which was a Lutheran suburb of Solingen back then. So, a Bertram was obviously sent-for to run the forges and provide steel in 1690, which - at least - was the date of the shipwreck. The other Bertram (and I'm thinking the father, as the shipwrecked Bertram was only 20) may have come earlier to help Vinting, then sent for his son.

Vinting was Swedish by the way, and descended from the 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth tasked with finding, mining and working metals around the country. The Vintings started work back in the 1500s organising the mining of lead at nearby Ryton.

Thomas Carnforth, the Newcastle cutler, commandeered the current Vinting to help set up the works at SB back in 1685; Vinting almost certainly supplied the recommendation to Dell regarding the suitability of the Derwent valley.

As Hounslow was still making blades into the early 1680s, Dell, who was the principle German blade-mill owner, would be selling to Carnforth. And delivering - as payment had to be collected; which put him in Newcastle well in advance of 1685, when he set up the syndicate and brought up Hoppe and Heneckels, who had moved back to Hounslow from Oxford.

I am quite certain that Carnforth would be buying from Dell at Hounslow, because there was the high duty on German imports via nearby Rotterdam; so, assuming the machine existed - and only in Solingen, the hollow blades would be the one thing that Dell could not supply... hence the initial plan.
Is the picture coming into focus? Are you all following me so far? Please pick holes in the above if you see any flaws in the picture: I need the best editors.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 12th November 2017, 11:34 PM

Great stuff Keith.The point is we dont know..as no machine ever appeared but it may well have been a hammer and grinding wheel combination. They used big water powered and later steam powered hammers. Any luck with the hoard of blades you mentioned earlier..?

urbanspaceman · 12th November 2017, 11:46 PM

The chest of blades was given to a local museum.
People who work in museums consider all the exhibits and archived treasures as their own, and in the past I have had to threaten curators with legal action before they have allowed access to what actually belongs to the public; unless it is a loan of course.
Anyway, the chap who donated the blades told me to give him a call if I had any difficulty accessing the hoard, so I will have to do that this week, as my polite request of two weeks ago has been politely ignored.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th November 2017, 06:33 PM

I wonder what blade marks they have ... Assuming they were on route to Shotley Bridge? I would guess passau wolf marks. Good luck with the search.

urbanspaceman · 13th November 2017, 08:42 PM

They had come from Shotley Bridge and were certainly for the Danbys who were staunch Catholics and had been for generations. They are one of England's oldest families dating back before the Normans to the time of Edward the Confessor. They are still an unbroken line today. It is the current head of the family that is helping me.
I'm also chasing up the Percys at Alnwick: not quite as old a family line but certainly higher profile today thanks to Mr Potter.

12th November 2017, 10:21 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	In the groove Gentlemen, what about my proposition that the hollows were hammered-in and ground smooth? Shotley Bridge nearly went bankrupt paying Den Haydon for stock, so to waste all those grooves' worth of finished steel ground into filings does not make sense. Far better to spend time hammering them out on an anvil - or smuggling them in from Rotterdam. I am sure Solingen would feel the same way, as they were buying their steel from the Swedes. Was a man's time more expensive than steel stock? That's why I keep banging-on about hammering in the hollows, as maybe there never was a machine anywhere! Otherwise, why not make a one at Shotley Bridge; those guys knew what it looked like, how it worked, and had all the skills and materials needed to build a one. So far, I am unable to envisage a machine that can grind a gradually tapering groove into the side of a triangular cross-section length of steel; and I'm usually pretty good at that sort of thing. I'll keep trying. Speaking of steel, something I discovered yesterday was that there were two Bertrams: William and John; I can't find my notes telling me which one was shipwrecked off the mouth of the Tyne. They were both from Remscheid, which was a Lutheran suburb of Solingen back then. So, a Bertram was obviously sent-for to run the forges and provide steel in 1690, which - at least - was the date of the shipwreck. The other Bertram (and I'm thinking the father, as the shipwrecked Bertram was only 20) may have come earlier to help Vinting, then sent for his son. Vinting was Swedish by the way, and descended from the 'Ingenious Artisans' that Queen Elizabeth tasked with finding, mining and working metals around the country. The Vintings started work back in the 1500s organising the mining of lead at nearby Ryton. Thomas Carnforth, the Newcastle cutler, commandeered the current Vinting to help set up the works at SB back in 1685; Vinting almost certainly supplied the recommendation to Dell regarding the suitability of the Derwent valley. As Hounslow was still making blades into the early 1680s, Dell, who was the principle German blade-mill owner, would be selling to Carnforth. And delivering - as payment had to be collected; which put him in Newcastle well in advance of 1685, when he set up the syndicate and brought up Hoppe and Heneckels, who had moved back to Hounslow from Oxford. I am quite certain that Carnforth would be buying from Dell at Hounslow, because there was the high duty on German imports via nearby Rotterdam; so, assuming the machine existed - and only in Solingen, the hollow blades would be the one thing that Dell could not supply... hence the initial plan. Is the picture coming into focus? Are you all following me so far? Please pick holes in the above if you see any flaws in the picture: I need the best editors.

12th November 2017, 11:46 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Museums The chest of blades was given to a local museum. People who work in museums consider all the exhibits and archived treasures as their own, and in the past I have had to threaten curators with legal action before they have allowed access to what actually belongs to the public; unless it is a loan of course. Anyway, the chap who donated the blades told me to give him a call if I had any difficulty accessing the hoard, so I will have to do that this week, as my polite request of two weeks ago has been politely ignored.

13th November 2017, 08:42 PM	#7
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Jacobites They had come from Shotley Bridge and were certainly for the Danbys who were staunch Catholics and had been for generations. They are one of England's oldest families dating back before the Normans to the time of Edward the Confessor. They are still an unbroken line today. It is the current head of the family that is helping me. I'm also chasing up the Percys at Alnwick: not quite as old a family line but certainly higher profile today thanks to Mr Potter. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 14th November 2017 at 01:56 AM. Reason: typo

10th November 2017, 08:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	If I understand correctly, hollow ground means the concave grinding out of the face of a blade, creating a notably stronger cross section, much as with the I beam in steel girders. Fullers are drawn linear grooves placed in the blade at time of forging I believe, and the differences in these have been incredibly hard to grasp as the terms have often confusing definitions. The notion of 'blood gutters' has been one of the most off center notions of all.

12th November 2017, 11:34 PM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Great stuff Keith.The point is we dont know..as no machine ever appeared but it may well have been a hammer and grinding wheel combination. They used big water powered and later steam powered hammers. Any luck with the hoard of blades you mentioned earlier..?

13th November 2017, 06:33 PM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I wonder what blade marks they have ... Assuming they were on route to Shotley Bridge? I would guess passau wolf marks. Good luck with the search.