How many of the katars we know were court katars?

Jim McDougall · 9th November 2017, 09:40 PM

Alan, thank you so much for that fascinating insight into possibilities for these otherwise presumably decorative symbolisms. There are profound complexities in Hindu symbolism, but as Indian weaponry has in many cases been observed as holding much inherent value in these religious aspects it must be strongly considered. Often what seems to the uninitiated to be simple aesthetic decoration has much deeper meaning.

As you well point out, these kinds of symbolism transcend weapon forms but remain inherent in many which are attributed to those of Hindu Faith.

Jens, I know what you mean about recognizing your well known place in the study of these katars as just a collector, but powerfully advanced in this field. Very, very few collectors ever pursue the history, development and classification of these the way you have, and frankly I am extremely proud of what I have learned from you these many years.

That set aside, I look forward to the examples, and Alan's observation on this decoration is excellent. As Ibrahiim has noted, this distinct design of the linear 'V's does occur on Omani arms, and I wonder if perhaps the notable trade from coastal India to Arabia may account for such occurrence?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th November 2017, 01:01 AM

Thank you Jim and interesting about the India Oman link regarding the zig zag pattern. Here are two Omani Swords (Sayf Yamaani)with the zig zag placed in the same part of the weapon as on the Katar; thus my query....

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th November 2017, 01:38 AM

Returning to the thread and the question which is what were the better quality Katars? I presume the daggers worn at court fall into the same category.. Pinterest has a lot of very ornate examples at:

https://www.pinterest.com/wmilitaria...rs/?lp=truebut

I picked out a couple to place here...The older example with a full handguard form being 17thC and the other showing both sides 18thC. It would seem reasonable to inspect Mughal Court paintings of the period for examples of artwork displaying Katar being worn however these are miniatures and fine detail is not easy to see...

As already stated surely koftgari and finely made scabbards and those examples with semi precious stones incorporated into the design would be likely suspects as court swords or as better quality Katar?

estcrh · 10th November 2017, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Returning to the thread and the question which is what were the better quality Katars? I presume the daggers worn at court fall into the same category.. Pinterest has a lot of very ornate examples at:

https://www.pinterest.com/wmilitaria...rs/?lp=truebut

The Met Museum has many excellent examples.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...f-art-collect/

A. G. Maisey · 10th November 2017, 06:55 AM

Jim, there is very obscure symbolism and iconography in most traditional cultures and the art of those cultures.

For example, most of the art of the Renaissance and the Middle Ages was religious art, and it is all loaded with iconography:- you see a rose, there is a message, you see a lily, there is a different message. Even into the 19th century some artists were still using the symbolism from the past, probably not as often, nor as cleverly, but it did crop up.

When we involve ourselves in attempts to understand the art and design motifs of past societies, we need to be able to think in a way that is in tune with the people from the society that we are attempting to come to terms with. In the case of a society that is based in Hindu religion and the attendant culture, we are really quite fortunate, because apart from sources authored by Hindu people themselves, we have a lot of material that was authored by the British, many of whom were captivated by Hindu culture.

However, any iconography can only apply within the context to which it is related. If we see little upwards pointing triangles in a Hindu context, we know exactly what we are looking at, always dependent upon context, but if we see a line of those little triangles cut into cloth on the kitchen table, well, all we might be seeing is the result of somebody using pinking shears.

Similarly, if we see a line of those little VVVVVV on a Hindu weapon, we know how to approach an understanding of them within a Hindu context, but if we see those VVVVVV in a different context we may only be looking at an ornamental motif. The ornamental motif may have been inspired by religious iconography, but removed from its original context it no longer has the original meaning.

Just as a rose in 21st century pop art is simply a rose

Jens Nordlunde · 10th November 2017, 04:48 PM

Alan is right, and in the start it took me a long time to figure out, that you need knowledge of how they were thinking at the time, and try to think so yourself.
This means, that one need to have some background knowledge, or the understanding of the decoration will be lost.
Thank you Alan for making this clear.

Ian · 10th November 2017, 05:07 PM

Just as an aside, we see the VVVV... motif also on some of the jamdhar katari. A nice example here.

Ian.

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2017, 05:20 PM

Brilliantly said Alan, and one of the most perfectly explained perspectives I have seen describing exactly the way we examine, analyze and appreciate the art involved in weaponry. As Jens has noted, we need to step into the times and culture of the people who were using the weapons themselves, and to learn as much as we can about how they thought, what did they believe?

This is why we always emphasize how important it is to include the history, symbolism and in the same perspective, the art and iconography in our study of these arms.

As Alan has also well noted, sometimes the same symbols, motif and designs are transmitted into entirely different contexts as influences transcend cultural and geographic boundaries. In these cases of course, we must realize the original symbolism no longer applies, and becomes simply an aesthetic motif.

However, the influence in the recipient context still does in degree represent historically the connections between the cultures involved at some point. Sometimes these signal events or periods in which the cultures came together, and help in setting the time the weapon from which the weapon derived.

That is in my opinion, the joy and passion of studying these weapons. Not just classification of them, but the stories they share in helping us better understand them; where they were, who used them, what things were represented by them in their character and decoration.

It is wonderful to hear these perspectives from those here who are in my opinion masters of serious weapons study and investigative research.

Perfect analogy about the linear 'V' pattern Alan! sometimes what we see is just that, but it is up to us to determine just when it might be deeper.

10th November 2017, 01:01 AM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Thank you Jim and interesting about the India Oman link regarding the zig zag pattern. Here are two Omani Swords (Sayf Yamaani)with the zig zag placed in the same part of the weapon as on the Katar; thus my query.... Attached Images

10th November 2017, 01:38 AM	#3
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Returning to the thread and the question which is what were the better quality Katars? I presume the daggers worn at court fall into the same category.. Pinterest has a lot of very ornate examples at: https://www.pinterest.com/wmilitaria...rs/?lp=truebut I picked out a couple to place here...The older example with a full handguard form being 17thC and the other showing both sides 18thC. It would seem reasonable to inspect Mughal Court paintings of the period for examples of artwork displaying Katar being worn however these are miniatures and fine detail is not easy to see... As already stated surely koftgari and finely made scabbards and those examples with semi precious stones incorporated into the design would be likely suspects as court swords or as better quality Katar? Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 10th November 2017 at 02:08 AM.

9th November 2017, 09:40 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Alan, thank you so much for that fascinating insight into possibilities for these otherwise presumably decorative symbolisms. There are profound complexities in Hindu symbolism, but as Indian weaponry has in many cases been observed as holding much inherent value in these religious aspects it must be strongly considered. Often what seems to the uninitiated to be simple aesthetic decoration has much deeper meaning. As you well point out, these kinds of symbolism transcend weapon forms but remain inherent in many which are attributed to those of Hindu Faith. Jens, I know what you mean about recognizing your well known place in the study of these katars as just a collector, but powerfully advanced in this field. Very, very few collectors ever pursue the history, development and classification of these the way you have, and frankly I am extremely proud of what I have learned from you these many years. That set aside, I look forward to the examples, and Alan's observation on this decoration is excellent. As Ibrahiim has noted, this distinct design of the linear 'V's does occur on Omani arms, and I wonder if perhaps the notable trade from coastal India to Arabia may account for such occurrence?

10th November 2017, 06:55 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jim, there is very obscure symbolism and iconography in most traditional cultures and the art of those cultures. For example, most of the art of the Renaissance and the Middle Ages was religious art, and it is all loaded with iconography:- you see a rose, there is a message, you see a lily, there is a different message. Even into the 19th century some artists were still using the symbolism from the past, probably not as often, nor as cleverly, but it did crop up. When we involve ourselves in attempts to understand the art and design motifs of past societies, we need to be able to think in a way that is in tune with the people from the society that we are attempting to come to terms with. In the case of a society that is based in Hindu religion and the attendant culture, we are really quite fortunate, because apart from sources authored by Hindu people themselves, we have a lot of material that was authored by the British, many of whom were captivated by Hindu culture. However, any iconography can only apply within the context to which it is related. If we see little upwards pointing triangles in a Hindu context, we know exactly what we are looking at, always dependent upon context, but if we see a line of those little triangles cut into cloth on the kitchen table, well, all we might be seeing is the result of somebody using pinking shears. Similarly, if we see a line of those little VVVVVV on a Hindu weapon, we know how to approach an understanding of them within a Hindu context, but if we see those VVVVVV in a different context we may only be looking at an ornamental motif. The ornamental motif may have been inspired by religious iconography, but removed from its original context it no longer has the original meaning. Just as a rose in 21st century pop art is simply a rose

10th November 2017, 04:48 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alan is right, and in the start it took me a long time to figure out, that you need knowledge of how they were thinking at the time, and try to think so yourself. This means, that one need to have some background knowledge, or the understanding of the decoration will be lost. Thank you Alan for making this clear.

10th November 2017, 05:07 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,396	Just as an aside, we see the VVVV... motif also on some of the jamdhar katari. A nice example here. Ian.

10th November 2017, 05:20 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Brilliantly said Alan, and one of the most perfectly explained perspectives I have seen describing exactly the way we examine, analyze and appreciate the art involved in weaponry. As Jens has noted, we need to step into the times and culture of the people who were using the weapons themselves, and to learn as much as we can about how they thought, what did they believe? This is why we always emphasize how important it is to include the history, symbolism and in the same perspective, the art and iconography in our study of these arms. As Alan has also well noted, sometimes the same symbols, motif and designs are transmitted into entirely different contexts as influences transcend cultural and geographic boundaries. In these cases of course, we must realize the original symbolism no longer applies, and becomes simply an aesthetic motif. However, the influence in the recipient context still does in degree represent historically the connections between the cultures involved at some point. Sometimes these signal events or periods in which the cultures came together, and help in setting the time the weapon from which the weapon derived. That is in my opinion, the joy and passion of studying these weapons. Not just classification of them, but the stories they share in helping us better understand them; where they were, who used them, what things were represented by them in their character and decoration. It is wonderful to hear these perspectives from those here who are in my opinion masters of serious weapons study and investigative research. Perfect analogy about the linear 'V' pattern Alan! sometimes what we see is just that, but it is up to us to determine just when it might be deeper.