Shotley Bridge swordmakers

fernando · 26th October 2017, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mel H

... Many people 'up here' would quickly add that not much has changed, but that's another story...

Definitely another story, Mel !

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th October 2017, 08:00 PM

See http://www.klingenthal.fr/anglais_2_a.htm for an interesting timescale at Klingenthal.

urbanspaceman · 26th October 2017, 10:22 PM

Hey Jim, sorry to ruin a distinctly glossy sheen on the Shotley Bridge image but there is definitely no connection between Mohll of Shotley Bridge and Mole of Birmingham. It was Robert Wilkinson-Latham's book 'The Swords and Records of Robert Mole and Sons (from 2008) where he declared the sad news. Apparently it was a genealogical trace-back from the Moles of Birmingham, and forward from Mohll of SB, and no connection was found. I have to say that the dates never lined up anyway as Mohll sold his entire works to Oley in 1724.
Here is an extract from an interesting article, that Ibrahiim has mentioned before, that tells of The Guild of the Running Fox:
.....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital.
That's a great resource on Klingenthal Ibrahiim, thank-you.
Re. Klingenthal: back then, Birmingham was the 'Second City of the Empire'; Shotley Bridge had no chance really, once the Solingen secrets had migrated to Birmingham.
I haven't looked at Birmingham's early sword-making history: does anyone know of a good concise book on the subject? Or even just a comprehensive article. Mel?

urbanspaceman · 26th October 2017, 10:54 PM

I am now firmly convinced that the symbol of the bushy-tailed running fox (that - locally - has long been associated with Shotley Bridge) was started by Oley when the guild was established.
What I really want to find out is: was there, in-fact, any connection with Birmingham at any time, now we know it wasn't Mohll?

urbanspaceman · 26th October 2017, 11:27 PM

It would appear that once Huntsman invented his 'crucible steel' method in 1740, that the secrets of forging sword blades would not be far behind. It looks like Thomas Gill was in at the start (1783) probably because he was a watch and clock maker, the same as Huntsman but also because of his huge manufactory.
This is an extract from Bezdek's book 'The Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland'.

In 1783, the Earl of Surrey (a member of the Treasury Board) sent a letter to a Mr. Eyre of the town council of Sheffield, informing him of a petition by the London sword sellers (cutlers) under consideration to allow German sword blades into England duty free. (The reason was that English blade makers could not provide quality sword blades at a reasonable price.) The earl wanted sword blade quality and price information from Eyre on Sheffield makers.
• Since few sword blades were being made at Sheffield, Mr. Eyre sent a copy to Thomas Gill of Birmingham.
Gill sent a letter to the Treasury Board, saying he could make sword blades of equal quality to German blades.
In 1786 following up a demand from the east India Company for 10,000 cavalry swords,
he sent 2,650 blades; and subjecting them to the Matthew Boulton tests only four were rejected. = 0.15%
Harvey: 1,700 and 42 rejected. = 2.4%
Woolley: 1,000 and 19 rejected. = 1.9%
Runkel: 1,400 and 28 rejected. = 2%

I would say that was pretty good going for a relative novice in competition with German blades.
Please correct me if I am in error anywhere here because I am, as you know, a novice on this subject.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th October 2017, 12:24 AM

RUNKEL: See https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-arch...rd/runkel.html

Quote"RUNKEL, Johann Justus (c1751–1808)
One of the most important London merchants dealing in Solingen blades was the sword cutler Johann Justus Runkel. His trading premises were located at 8 Tookes Court, Holborn and he was a member of the Cutler's Company (the trade guild), though his business was mainly importation – blades, fully made up swords, and even unmanufactured steel. In the period 1795–1808 he was probably the most important London merchant dealing in Solingen blades."Unquote.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th October 2017, 12:45 AM

Harvey; Example of Sword blade mark. ...A British Militia Sword - maker Samuel Harvey (no scabbard) Marked to Rutland Militia. A nice militia sword 28'' polished curved blade, once polished, but now dark. A few lightly pitted areas, but the blade is pretty good. Maker marked on both sides with a running wolf and SH (Samuel Harvey - swordsmith in Birmingham 1730-1748) Brass heart-shaped hilt, with a turned down short quillon. Wooden handle, round pommel.

26th October 2017, 10:22 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Mohll versus Mole Hey Jim, sorry to ruin a distinctly glossy sheen on the Shotley Bridge image but there is definitely no connection between Mohll of Shotley Bridge and Mole of Birmingham. It was Robert Wilkinson-Latham's book 'The Swords and Records of Robert Mole and Sons (from 2008) where he declared the sad news. Apparently it was a genealogical trace-back from the Moles of Birmingham, and forward from Mohll of SB, and no connection was found. I have to say that the dates never lined up anyway as Mohll sold his entire works to Oley in 1724. Here is an extract from an interesting article, that Ibrahiim has mentioned before, that tells of The Guild of the Running Fox: .....Wilkinson Sword – the crossed swords logo of that company is believed to have come from the emblem of the “Guild of the Running Fox” – the Shotley Bridge sword makers' guild. The few remaining clues left are the Crown and Crossed Swords pub (originally owned by the Oleys), Cutlers Hall (the guild meeting place, now a private house) and the crossed swords on the old logo of the Shotley Bridge Hospital. That's a great resource on Klingenthal Ibrahiim, thank-you. Re. Klingenthal: back then, Birmingham was the 'Second City of the Empire'; Shotley Bridge had no chance really, once the Solingen secrets had migrated to Birmingham. I haven't looked at Birmingham's early sword-making history: does anyone know of a good concise book on the subject? Or even just a comprehensive article. Mel?

26th October 2017, 10:54 PM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Verification I am now firmly convinced that the symbol of the bushy-tailed running fox (that - locally - has long been associated with Shotley Bridge) was started by Oley when the guild was established. What I really want to find out is: was there, in-fact, any connection with Birmingham at any time, now we know it wasn't Mohll?

26th October 2017, 11:27 PM	#5
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 605	Crucible steel It would appear that once Huntsman invented his 'crucible steel' method in 1740, that the secrets of forging sword blades would not be far behind. It looks like Thomas Gill was in at the start (1783) probably because he was a watch and clock maker, the same as Huntsman but also because of his huge manufactory. This is an extract from Bezdek's book 'The Swords and Swordmakers of England and Scotland'. In 1783, the Earl of Surrey (a member of the Treasury Board) sent a letter to a Mr. Eyre of the town council of Sheffield, informing him of a petition by the London sword sellers (cutlers) under consideration to allow German sword blades into England duty free. (The reason was that English blade makers could not provide quality sword blades at a reasonable price.) The earl wanted sword blade quality and price information from Eyre on Sheffield makers. • Since few sword blades were being made at Sheffield, Mr. Eyre sent a copy to Thomas Gill of Birmingham. Gill sent a letter to the Treasury Board, saying he could make sword blades of equal quality to German blades. In 1786 following up a demand from the east India Company for 10,000 cavalry swords, he sent 2,650 blades; and subjecting them to the Matthew Boulton tests only four were rejected. = 0.15% Harvey: 1,700 and 42 rejected. = 2.4% Woolley: 1,000 and 19 rejected. = 1.9% Runkel: 1,400 and 28 rejected. = 2% I would say that was pretty good going for a relative novice in competition with German blades. Please correct me if I am in error anywhere here because I am, as you know, a novice on this subject. Last edited by urbanspaceman; 26th October 2017 at 11:41 PM.

27th October 2017, 12:24 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	RUNKEL: See https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-arch...rd/runkel.html Quote"RUNKEL, Johann Justus (c1751–1808) One of the most important London merchants dealing in Solingen blades was the sword cutler Johann Justus Runkel. His trading premises were located at 8 Tookes Court, Holborn and he was a member of the Cutler's Company (the trade guild), though his business was mainly importation – blades, fully made up swords, and even unmanufactured steel. In the period 1795–1808 he was probably the most important London merchant dealing in Solingen blades."Unquote. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 27th October 2017 at 12:36 AM.

27th October 2017, 12:45 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Harvey; Example of Sword blade mark. ...A British Militia Sword - maker Samuel Harvey (no scabbard) Marked to Rutland Militia. A nice militia sword 28'' polished curved blade, once polished, but now dark. A few lightly pitted areas, but the blade is pretty good. Maker marked on both sides with a running wolf and SH (Samuel Harvey - swordsmith in Birmingham 1730-1748) Brass heart-shaped hilt, with a turned down short quillon. Wooden handle, round pommel. Attached Images

26th October 2017, 08:00 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	See http://www.klingenthal.fr/anglais_2_a.htm for an interesting timescale at Klingenthal.