The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 6th August 2016, 08:47 AM #296

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014

Originally Posted by blue lander
It is indeed an interesting blade which I unfortunately did not win the auction for (Quote)


Hi Blue Lander,

I would be not to regretful, in my opinion that blade is a shortened sword blade of a late 18th C military officers sword.
Just look how the fuller runs trough right to the end , on this type of blade it should stop before the end, more or less two third of the blade length.
The edges on the side of the fuller are sharpened.
Also the length of the ricasso would be totally out of proportion.
Here is a sword with a similar type of blade.

kind regards

Ulfberth

(missing attachments)
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[fernando]

Old 6th August 2016, 07:58 PM #297

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Well caught Ulfberht!!
That looks exactly like what this is. It of course begs the question, why was this cut down? While we know that Scottish sword hilts were often cut down to become dirks. In India of course, the well known instances and practice of cutting down European blades to be used in katars are legion.

In Africa, French cavalry blades were constantly the fodder for the native swords of Mali, and others. By the same token French bayonets became well used as s'boula and other dagger forms.

But in Europe, blades being repurposed in these manners seems atypical, so could this have been an ethnographically repurposed at some time, then at some point, the hilt removed or come apart?

Finding that cartouche is of interest also, and seems familiar, perhaps Bezdek et al ?
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[fernando]

Old 7th August 2016, 06:27 AM #298

Posted by:
ulfberth
Member

Join Date: Jul 2014


True Jim,

In Europe the re use of broken blades is seen more often up until the 17th C, broken rapier or sword blades used to make daggers was a rule rather than throwing them away. After that period you hardly find any military re used blades in Europe , could it be that these were sold for export ?
What we do find is all kinds of military equipment that got a second life by farmers. The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened.
Bayonets and swords to slaughter cattle and many, many German helmets used to scoop, water, grains or other stuff on farms.
My grandfather had several metal English ammunition boxes that he used as tool boxes.
Back to the dagger or sword blade, its hard to determine for what it was re used again, an take in consideration that it could be used to make a composite weapon.

kind regards

Ulfberth
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[fernando]

Old 7th August 2016, 12:26 PM #299

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Originally Posted by ulfberth
... The French Napoleonic muskets left on the battle fields were converted for hunting use, the barrel and the wood shortened... (Quote)

Oh yes,
Blunderbusses adapted by regional smiths from salvaged musket parts, from the Peninsular War, are countless.
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[fernando]

Old 21st December 2016, 12:25 PM #300

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Bravo !!!This thread is astounding...and has just gone through 100 thousand viewings...
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[Victrix]

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

[fernando]

I woldn't know about the four dots mark, but i guess this is more a symbol than properly a maker's mark.
You could also find the four dots in early hand cannons; maybe just a concidence.

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[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Victrix

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

I encountered the four dots mark on a sabre at the Warzaw Army Museum (see picture) believed to have belonged to Hungarian noble man Stephan Bathory who was Prince of Transylvania 1571-76 and King of Poland 1575-86. He is credited with bringing the hussars (the light cavalry, not the winged, variety) to Poland.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Victrix

This refers to a mid 1700s Austro-Hungarian hussar sabre with a picture of the Madonna engraved on the blade as the Patron of Hungary standing on a halfmoon. Wagner’s Cut & Thrust Weapons shows a similar sabre on p.407, which is engraved ”Pottenstein” on the back edge. This sabre has four dots engraved there instead (see first picture below). Is this a maker’s or a trader’s mark? Are they related to Caucasian gurda marks (see second picture below)? I wonder if someone has seen this before? Many thanks.

There’s an 18thC Ottoman Karabela sword in the Imperial Armoury in Prague which has the four dots mark in addition to three dots marks in various constellations. The blade seems European but the four dots mark (near the half moon mark) might have been added later?