The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 25th May 2012, 05:14 PM #231

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID.

You may also check the respective discussion thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597


Any help will be much welcome.

.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 02:10 AM #232

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Fernando, I cannot help my curiosity on these marks but I cannot make out what the forte mark is since it is partly obscured or worn away, in any case seems incomplete.
The undulating line it seems was well explained by Jasper in the other thread showing the latteen wavy line on medieval blade, noting its Christian symbolism .

I am wondering if it is possible that a mark like this on a rapier could perhaps allude to the fabled flamberge or wavy blades romanticized in some medieval swords and later rapiers as well. While there is some conflict in terminology with these blades termed flammard and flambard and the flamberge name for the sword of Renaud (It. Rinaldo), it does seem symbolically important for 'heroic' or powerful swords. I would admit this is perhaps a fanciful suggestion, but still it seemed worthy of note in addition to the well placed note by Jasper, with consideration to both.

Naturally I would hope others might have seen this type mark on other blades, or might offer thier views.
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:07 AM #233


Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by fernando
I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID. (Quote)

You may also check the respective discussion thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597

Any help will be much welcome. (Quote)

.
Salaams fernando. I have read the supporting thread ( and about 10 hours of background research into Spanish swords though I have only scraped the surface so far ~it is a vast subject) As well as our own resource I note for forum a couple of back up introductory pieces which will help break the ice for newcomers to the style viz;

http://www.yourphotocard.com/Ascani...rara_swords.pdf
http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com/jineta-sword.htm
gladius.revistas.csic.es/index.php/gladius/article/download/204/206

I include here a fascinating metalurgical research project done on Spanish blades viz;
http://csic.academia.edu/MarcGener/...d_rapier_blades

I note that your blade mark is not amongst the 90 plus marks in your earlier thread on Spanish blade marks .. could it be an old Arabic stamp ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:05 PM #234

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Outstanding entries Ibrahiim! especially Marc's work on the metallurgy of many of these blades. The presence of Muslim swordsmiths in Spain is well established in medieval times and of course the jineta weapons as well. The diffusion between the processes and techniques between them and the Frankish smiths is also well known.
While there may be a degree of connection developmentally it is not as far as I know clearly defined other than obvious influences being exchanged.
The power of Solingens ever increasing production by the 17th and 18th century had superceded that of Toledo and blades were produced for the markets of Spain and Portugal as well as so many others.

Although these blades were characteristically marked with inscriptions, names and marks to appeal to these markets, I am not sure of any Islamic mark or inscription of earlier Spanish makers of those earlier periods which might have carried forth into this later context.

It is known however, that many earlier heroic and romanticized notions from European and perhaps even earlier Frankish period/Viking periods were often included on blades along with these otherwise 'tailored' markings.

Having noted that, in further consideration of the 'wavy' blade idea to allude to fabled swords in chivalry, I completely forgot about Lee Jones important work on medieval blades "The Serpent in the Sword" . In this discussion on metallurgy of early medieval blades, he notes the cite from Paul DuChaillu (1889, "The Viking Age") where Skeggi instructs Kormak on the use of his sword Skofnung; "...if thou comest to the fighting place, sit alone and draw it. Hold up the blade and blow on it, then a small snake will creep from under the guard". These words metaphorically are meant to remind him to respect the sword and control his impulsiveness.

Perhaps this perception seen inlaid on medieval blades such as shown by Jasper of the 13th c. example may have been carried forth in marks used along with others which survived as well, such as the crosses, cross and orb and others. Again admittedly speculative, but worthy of consideration.
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 07:12 PM #235

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Thanks for your input Jim.
You are right in that the mark in the forte is somehow incomplete. However rather than worn by use, it was in fact a job negleted by its author; actualy the (same) mark on the other side is in a much worse condition.
The guy that apllied these marks wasn't minimally worried with their visibility. This is (also) why i think this not a maker's mark but the "punzon" of an inspector; while a displicent inspector or/and a much worn tool. But obviously this is my speculation; not the slightest evidence.
The undulating line is not that rare. I have already seen it (at least) in sword loose blade i saw once for sale, which was actualy acquired by a guy i know.
I just don't know if such one also had that V like simbol in its end. I have gone through my books looking for it, as i am sure i saw this symbol times before.
Maybe on of these days ...
.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 08:57 PM #236

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


Shalom Ibrahiim,
No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark.
... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story.
No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that.
.

[fernando]

Old 28th May 2012, 06:16 PM #237

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by fernando
Shalom Ibrahiim,
No, i don't think this is an Arabic (or Mudejar) mark.
... Although in the Palomar Nomina, the one you cite with the 90 plus marks, some secret Moors are included; like Julian del Rey, wom i think Jim has an essay on ... but that is another story.
No, even in that lousy punction condition, one can see it is not an Arabic symbol ... crown, plus what looks like a (Latin) initial and all that. (Quote)

Salaams fernando ~ Yes I had my doubts when I saw the & in the final circle of the stamp which is as you point out Latin(Et = & = and) and would agree that it is either a Spanish or German stamp. (Solingen did a lot of copying and vica versa.) Regarding the snake insignia etched on swords there is an interesting link on Omani Sayf; markings for ID by Ilyiad on the Ethnographic forum which is interesting.
In addition it carries the running wolf copied stamp. In fact on the subject of the running woolf there are two forms;
1. The Passau of Germany(Solingen) and
2. The Perrillo of Spain (Toledo)

Whilst the former tends to be a running woolf the latter appears as a prancing or rearing dog. Good sword stamps appear copied onto Arabian swords but it is a puzzle since no one has defined from which area the stamp was copied..

Was it the German or Spanish stamp copied by middle eastern swordsmiths..?

On the & mark I had originally thought it may have been part of the strap attached to a horn as in the Weyersberg mark from the 1630 era. This does not explain the rest of the strike mark which I cannot decipher...could it be two strike marks?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.