The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 7th April 2012, 06:30 PM #226

Posted by:
DaveA
Member

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: California.

P107, Wagner, Cut and Thrust Weapons
"The markings on a blade made by Johannes Wundes (1560-1620)..
King's head
Imperial orb
Passau wolf
.

[fernando]

pril 2012, 06:40 PM #227

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you Ibrahiim for your kind words toward this thread which truly has had great input over the years, though could certainly use a great deal more!
I'm glad it gets the traffic it does regardless, and always hope the contributions which have been placed here have been found useful by other researchers.

Regarding the Shotley Bridge Sword Co., this is quite a complex topic, and actually begins early in the 17th century with German sword cutlers who had come to Hounslow Heath mostly from Solingen. Some cutlers from Birmingham are known to have joined them there, but by about 1660s most of the Solingen makers had returned to Solingen. It seems only a few examples are known marked with Hounslow lettered in the inscriptions, and there are a number of examples of swords marked with the 'Passau wolf' but no other markings associated. The famed maker Peter Munsten as well as Johannes Kindt (later John Kennett) of course marked and inscribed blades accordingly. Munsten is better known for his cabalistic images on blades, but by 1660s returned to Solingen (according to Aylward, 1945).

By around 1687 Hermann Mohll and some of the descendants of the Hounslow workers, along with newly immigrated Solingen makers formed a sword making center at Shotley Bridge in County Durham on the Derwent River. By 1690 blades from Shotley Bridge were being sold at a warehouse in London, but the enterprise was temporarily ceased when Hermann Mohll got in trouble with importing German blades ironically, and closing down sometime on or before 1703. Mohll reopened in 1716 (as Hermann Mohll & Son) and the business moved to Birmingham around 1832 from Shotley Bridge (the forerunner of Robert Mole, the famed maker who later was acquired by Wilkinson).

There is some evidence or suggestion of crossed swords being used by the firm but I have seen no evidence of examples of blades with such mark.
There are walloon hilt swords with blades marked in the fullers SHOTLEY BRIDGE from the time of the Monmouth Rebellion and Marlborough Campaigns but no specific symbolic markings I am aware of.

This is an excellent question Ibrahiim, and I hope the data I have compiled is of some use explaining more of what these blades may have had on them. There is considerable material on these German swordsmiths in England in both Hounslow and Shotley Bridge, along with the somewhat irrelevant mystery of the Hollow Sword Co. which seems to have been more a real estate venture than sword enterprise.

All best regards,
Jim (Quote)

Salaams Jim, I bumped into a peculiar reference in the Met Museum of Art archives about hollow swords and it appears that swords were actually made by "The Hollow Sword Blade Company" with a hollow blade filled with mercury so that the weight on thrusting was transferred down the blade to the tip therefor giving extra weight to the momentum...

To source this reference simply tap into web search Swords From The Dresden Armoury from which I Quote "One learns, for example, of the Hollow Sword Blade Company which was chartered for the professed purpose of making hollow swords with running mercury inclosed to gravitate to the point when a blow was struck and so increase the weight and momentum of the stroke". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 10th April 2012, 03:48 AM #228

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Dave, thank you so much for adding the excellent views of Wagner's references and the data on the Solingen makers, most pertinant in this thread.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the reference to the intriguing "Hollow Sword Blade Co." which has become a most interesting conundrum in the study of the German swordsmiths in England during the late 17th, into the 18th c.

This brings back great memories of research years ago into the lore of weapons, especially the tales of mercury filled blades. This idea was part of the fanciful notions of these times which dealt primarily with the 'steel apple', purportedly an iron weight which was fashioned to slide from heel to point of a blade on a rod along the blade. I recall research for an author who was trying to locate an example of such a sword for a novel set in 17th century Scotland. Apparantly the tales of this peculiar feature seem to have derived from the romantic tales of Sir Walter Scott who mentions this in one of his stories. The concept was carried further as I recall by the early biographer of James Bowie and his knife, mentioning the feature on a knife he had handled. No substantiation could be found for any of these weapons, but numerous mentions seem to have reflected influence between authors.

The same concept seems to have been perceived by writers in the Victorian period who must have drawn from these notions, and an 1859 reference refers to 'quicksilver in the back of a sword' but no evidence of actual swords with this supposed feature to increase dynamic force of thier cut.
They do mention the Walter Scott reference to the 'steel apple', which of course suggests the association in concept.

In actuality, the term 'hollow' refers to the German trade secret of the machinery to roll out 'hollows' in thier 'Kolichmarde' type smallsword blades, giving them the distinct three or four fuller cross section. It had nothing to do with fanciful notions of mercury in hollowed channels in or on the blade.
While the German sword producing firm of Hermann Mohll was in fact created to make swords, they were actually smuggling these 'hollow ground' blades into England and finishing them there, resulting in legal issues.

To complicate things more, the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' appears to have been created around the same time purportedly to make 'hollow blades' but actually was more of a financial syndicate involved in purchasing forfeited Itish estates. According to Aylward and other writers, there is no evidence of blades from this venture, let alone any of the fanciful mercury filled blades, as far as I have ever discovered.

Still, it is a great topic and we have had fascinating discussions on it and related topic over the years. Thank you so much for adding it here!!!

All the very best,
Jim
.

[fernando]

pril 2012, 03:32 PM #229

Posted by:
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Member

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buraimi Oman,
on the border with the UAE


Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Dave, thank you so much for adding the excellent views of Wagner's references and the data on the Solingen makers, most pertinant in this thread.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the reference to the intriguing "Hollow Sword Blade Co." which has become a most interesting conundrum in the study of the German swordsmiths in England during the late 17th, into the 18th c.

This brings back great memories of research years ago into the lore of weapons, especially the tales of mercury filled blades. This idea was part of the fanciful notions of these times which dealt primarily with the 'steel apple', purportedly an iron weight which was fashioned to slide from heel to point of a blade on a rod along the blade. I recall research for an author who was trying to locate an example of such a sword for a novel set in 17th century Scotland. Apparantly the tales of this peculiar feature seem to have derived from the romantic tales of Sir Walter Scott who mentions this in one of his stories. The concept was carried further as I recall by the early biographer of James Bowie and his knife, mentioning the feature on a knife he had handled. No substantiation could be found for any of these weapons, but numerous mentions seem to have reflected influence between authors.

The same concept seems to have been perceived by writers in the Victorian period who must have drawn from these notions, and an 1859 reference refers to 'quicksilver in the back of a sword' but no evidence of actual swords with this supposed feature to increase dynamic force of thier cut.
They do mention the Walter Scott reference to the 'steel apple', which of course suggests the association in concept.

In actuality, the term 'hollow' refers to the German trade secret of the machinery to roll out 'hollows' in thier 'Kolichmarde' type smallsword blades, giving them the distinct three or four fuller cross section. It had nothing to do with fanciful notions of mercury in hollowed channels in or on the blade.
While the German sword producing firm of Hermann Mohll was in fact created to make swords, they were actually smuggling these 'hollow ground' blades into England and finishing them there, resulting in legal issues.

To complicate things more, the 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' appears to have been created around the same time purportedly to make 'hollow blades' but actually was more of a financial syndicate involved in purchasing forfeited Itish estates. According to Aylward and other writers, there is no evidence of blades from this venture, let alone any of the fanciful mercury filled blades, as far as I have ever discovered.

Still, it is a great topic and we have had fascinating discussions on it and related topic over the years. Thank you so much for adding it here!!!

All the very best,
Jim (Quote)
Salaams Jim,
Thanks for that. I have dug up some interesting stuff on this subject and would like to park it here for reference please. Initially I thought that the blades part was some fanciful cover plan for the estates company but it seems they had a design to fill blades with mercury ... but when they tried it it apparently wasn't feasible...

- The Hollow Sword Blades Company ~ was set up in England in 1691 to make sword blades. In 1703 the company purchased some of the Irish estates forfeited under the Williamite settlement in counties Mayo, Sligo, Galway, and Roscommon. They also bought the forfeited estates of the Earl of Clancarty in counties Cork and Kerry and of Sir Patrick Trant in counties Kerry, Limerick, Kildare, Dublin, King and Queen's counties (Offaly and Laois). Further lands in counties Limerick, Tipperary, Cork and other counties, formerly the estate of James II were also purchased, also part of the estate of Lord Cahir in county Tipperary. In June 1703 the company bought a large estate in county Cork, confiscated from a number of attainted persons and other lands in counties Waterford and Clare. However within about 10 years the company had sold most of its Irish estates. Francis Edwards, a London merchant, was one of the main purchasers.

SEPTEMBER 28th
On this day in history in 1720, the South Sea Bubble finally burst.
The South Sea Bubble was an economic phenomenon which saw intense speculation in company shares and brought ruin to many private investors.
In 1711, the earl of Oxford and others formed a company, known as The South Sea Company, to trade with Spanish colonies in South America. Britain was at war with Spain at the time but, it was hoped that soon the war would be over, and profitable trading could begin. The war ended in 1713, but the peace treaty was not favourable to British trade, only allowing one voyage a year to the colonies. The company made its first expedition in 1717 and made moderate profits, but the directors of the company had guaranteed a dividend of at least 6% per annum, and therefore the company was losing money.
The directors tried to maintain confidence in the company by asking King George I to become its governor, and then formulated an ingenious scheme to boost public confidence in their enterprise. They proposed the takeover of the National Debt. Holders of government stock would be offered shares in the South Sea Company in exchange for their bonds, and the South Sea Company would become the sole government creditor and banker. This scheme was readily accepted by Parliament and public confidence in the company was restored.
Investors believed that this company must be making vast profits in order to promote this scheme. In fact, the company was only exchanging its own paper shares for paper government bonds. The value of the company’s shares rocketed, and by the end of 1719, had reached a value of £1,000 for each £100 share. Many other companies sprang up in the wake of this seemingly lucrative enterprise. There was a company to ‘fix quicksilver and make it as soft and malleable as lead’. There was a company ‘to insure marriages against divorce’ and one ‘for the planting of mulberry trees and breeding silk-worms in Chelsea Park’. One company was formed ‘for carrying on an undertaking of great advantage but no one to know what it is’. The formation of companies to undertake fatuous schemes was not new at that time. The South Sea Company’s bankers were The Hollow Sword Blade Company, a corporation formed to produce hollow sword blades, but which had found that difficult or impossible, and had branched out into banking, issuing bank notes with designs of sword blades.
In an attempt to reduce the competition for speculators’ money, the South Sea Company issued writs against many of these bogus companies. The courts ruled that many of these companies were indeed operating illegally, and added that the South Sea Company itself was not above suspicion. Shares in the company dropped at once. The directors attempted to allay disquiet by raising dividends but investors asked where the money was coming from, and stock prices fell further. The company tried to issue more stock to raise money to keep the business going but prices fell again. In September 1720, the directors called a shareholders’ meeting to try to restore confidence but prices fell further. On 24th September 1720, The Hollow Sword Blade Company, closed down, leaving the company with no funds and no business. On 28th September 1720, the directors announced that the company was to cease trading.
A subsequent investigation revealed that the whole scheme had been operating illegally. The directors had misappropriated funds for their own purposes and had made vast profits on speculation. They had bribed the king’s mistresses to persuade him to accept the governorship of the company. Furthermore they had deliberately misled the public and the government as to the true value of the company. Parliament subsequently passed The Bubble Act which forbad the setting up of a company without a Royal Charter.

As opposed to Hollow Grinding~
Blade cross-sections for typical grinds
1. Hollow grind-a knife blade which has been ground to create a characteristic concave, beveled cutting edge along. This is characteristic of straight razors, used for shaving, and yields a very sharp but weak edge which requires stropping for maintenance. Also used on ice skating blades.
2. Flat grind—The blade tapers all the way from the spine to the edge from both sides. A lot of metal is removed from the blade and is thus more difficult to grind, one factor that limits its commercial use. It sacrifices edge durability in favor of more sharpness. The Finnish puukko is an example of a flat ground knife. A true, flat ground knife having only a single bevel is somewhat of a rarity.
3. Sabre grind—Similar to a flat grind blade except that the bevel starts at about the middle of the blade, not the spine. Also named "Scandinavian Grind", it produces a more lasting edge at the expense of some cutting ability and is typical of kitchen knives. Also sometimes referred to as a "V Grind", made with strength in mind and found on tactical and military knives.
4. Chisel grind—As on a chisel, only one side is ground (often at an edge angle of about 20 – 30°); the other remains flat. As many Japanese culinary knives tend to be chisel ground they are often sharper than a typical double bevelled Western culinary knife. (A chisel grind has only a single edge angle. If a sabre grind blade has the same edge angle as a chisel grind, it still has two edges and thus has twice the included angle.) Knives which are chisel ground come in left and right-handed varieties, depending upon which side is ground.
Japanese knives feature subtle variations on the chisel grind: firstly, the back side of the blade is often concave, to reduce drag and adhesion so the food separates more cleanly; this feature is known as urasuki.[2] Secondly, the kanisaki deba, used for cutting crab and other shellfish, has the grind on the opposite side (left side angled for right-handed use), so that the meat is not cut when chopping the shell.[3]
5. Double bevel or compound bevel—A back bevel, similar to a sabre or flat grind, is put on the blade behind the edge bevel (the bevel which is the foremost cutting surface). This back bevel keeps the section of blade behind the edge thinner which improves cutting ability. Being less acute at the edge than a single bevel, sharpness is sacrificed for resilience: such a grind is much less prone to chipping or rolling than a single bevel blade. In practice, double bevels are common in a variety of edge angles and back bevel angles, and Western kitchen knives generally have a double bevel, with an edge angle of 20–22° (included angle of 40–44°).
6. Convex grind—Rather than tapering with straight lines to the edge, the taper is curved, though in the opposite manner to a hollow grind. Such a shape keeps a lot of metal behind the edge making for a stronger edge while still allowing a good degree of sharpness. This grind can be used on axes and is sometimes called an axe grind. As the angle of the taper is constantly changing this type of grind requires some degree of skill to reproduce on a flat stone. Convex blades usually need to be made from thicker stock than other blades. This is also known as 'hamaguriba' in japanese kitchen knives, both single and double beveled. Hamaguriba means "clam shaped edge".[1]
It is possible to combine grinds or produce other variations. For example, some blades may be flat ground for much of the blade but be convex ground towards the edge.

Lastly a fragment from;

STATISTICAL AND SOCIAL INQUIRY SOCIETY
OF IRELAND
VARIED ORIGINS OF THE IRISH PEOPLE.
By T. U. SADLEIR.
[Read on Friday, 21st April, 1933.]

Quote" Quite a number of the Cromwellian grantees
did not remain in Ireland, some returning to England in the disturbances
of 1688 and others settling in Jamaica or Barbadoes.
Many of their holdings, as well as a good many estates forfeited in the Williamite confiscations were bought up by a land jobbing company known as the Hollow Sword Blade Company. This corporation was originally engaged in the manufacture of sword blades, hollowed out to contain a quantity of mercury, which, falling to the inside of the point at every blow gave added force to the stroke". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
.

[fernando]

Old 11th April 2012, 04:54 AM #230

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Absolutely brilliant research Ibrahiim!!! Now thats what Im talkin' about!

The mysterious (better described as devious) Hollow Sword Blade Co. was written about in some degree by J.D.Aylward in 1948 and in 1962. Apparantly the fanciful notion of these mercury filled blades (as described in an 1859 journal entry) was noted in analogy in a poem by Henry More in 1647 describing 'running quicksilver' in the back of a sword. It seems that from here the idea of increasing impetus in thrust or cut with either this unlikely channeled liquid metal or moving weight sliding on a rod entered popular culture via Sir Walter Scott, and subsequent authors.

These concepts reappeared in the imaginations of 19th century writers, especially in America with the Bowie knife phenomenon and the novel "The Iron Mistress" which many people perceived as factual history of Bowie's knife.

The 'Hollow Sword Blade Co.' name I believe has become loosely associated to the enterprises at Hounslow Heath in the early to latter mid 17th century and the German smiths who worked there. The shops there were largely closed by the late 1660s with most of the makers leaving.
I think what is most puzzling is that during the English civil wars and later in conflicts in Ireland there are references to a 'Hollow Sword Co.' which made swords for all sides, and often received payment in lieu of currency with forfeited estates in Ireland. After 1700 they began realizing profits by selling off these estates.

Yet other references claim that the Hollow Sword Blade Company was started around 1690, and another reference describes the firm being started by Hermann Mohll nearly Shotley Bridge (near Newcastle). Mohll ran afoul of the law in 1703 when he was caught bringing in illegally imported German blades. These were probably the 'hollow ground' blades favored for the smallswords becoming popular, which were already partially complete and finished there at Shotley Bridge. It would seem quite possible that the term may have been misperceived and perhaps interpolated with the notions of mercury filled channeled blades and sensationalized by contemporaries writing for effect.

It seems further that the financial ventures undertaken under this unusual name must have derived from the holdings of these swordmaking enterprises in the form of these confiscated Irish estates, and assembled under the Hollow Sword Blade Co. name. Hermann Mohll, who was in the one instance noted as the founder, continued operating after his troubles in 1703 as Hermann Mohll & Son while the Hollow Sword Blade Co. continued as such until it dissolved in 1720. This suggests to me that the firm begun by Mohll (the ancestor of the well known Robert Mole firm of Birmingham, England eventually acquired by Wilkinson) was separate from the Hollow Blade Co.

While of course not directly associated with the theme of this thread on markings, it is interesting history that has to do with the British blademaking ancestry and Solingen makers. Just as with our study of the fascinating history of makers marks, this is the lore of edged weapons which gives them such fantastic dimension.

All the very best,]
Jim
.

[fernando]

Old 25th May 2012, 05:14 PM #231

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

I am posting here a mark and a symbol engraved in a (Spanish ?) cup hilted sword, with hopes that some day i will have an ID.

You may also check the respective discussion thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15597


Any help will be much welcome.

.

[fernando]

Old 27th May 2012, 02:10 AM #232

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66


Fernando, I cannot help my curiosity on these marks but I cannot make out what the forte mark is since it is partly obscured or worn away, in any case seems incomplete.
The undulating line it seems was well explained by Jasper in the other thread showing the latteen wavy line on medieval blade, noting its Christian symbolism .

I am wondering if it is possible that a mark like this on a rapier could perhaps allude to the fabled flamberge or wavy blades romanticized in some medieval swords and later rapiers as well. While there is some conflict in terminology with these blades termed flammard and flambard and the flamberge name for the sword of Renaud (It. Rinaldo), it does seem symbolically important for 'heroic' or powerful swords. I would admit this is perhaps a fanciful suggestion, but still it seemed worthy of note in addition to the well placed note by Jasper, with consideration to both.

Naturally I would hope others might have seen this type mark on other blades, or might offer thier views.
.