naginata blade please help

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,
The writting is very crude and the shape, albeit very similar, is not of a typical naginata. So I suspect it is a Chinese blade.
You may want to join the Nihonto Message Board and use their forum as they are very knowledgeable about Japanese blades.
Good luck!
Marius

I agree that something is not quite right with this blade, pole and fittings, I have several very worn and out of polish naginata blades but they do not look like this. The photographs are not good at all, this may be one problem here, also the habaki has not been removed, all Japanese blades should be photographed without the habaki. The habiki and pole fittings seem....rather new maybe? The pole (nagaye) looks round...naginata poles are not round, they are oval, Japanese spear (yari) poles are round. The end cap (ishizuki) is not the typical naginata shape, the metal re-enforced part (tachiuchi) that is typically seen at the mouth of naginata poles looks strange....overall there are some questions that need to be addressed here.

Below are some examples I have, the blade is in very bad condition as you can see but it looks nothing like the one being discussed. I think some better, more detailed images may help.

[weapons 27]

Detailed photos

[ariel]

Eric,

Please notice multiple pittings, some of which are quite deep . Thus, perfect polish will remove at least 1-2, maybe more, mm from each side of the entire blade. Whatever “damascus” picture was present, will likely be removed or significantly distorted. No serious Nihonto buff will be impressed by the final result.

We easily accept virtually any “Islamic” blade with superficial defects, patches of discoloration, occasional forging flaws etc, but the attitude of the guy from Lee’s story is typical for serious Nihonto collectors. Their acceptability criteria are just different. They are a breed apart.

The only other type of collectors who are somewhat approaching this level of perfectionism are “ wootz” collectors: witness Fiegel’s sorrowful comments on occasional microscopic slag inclusions:-)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Eric,

Please notice multiple pittings, some of which are quite deep . Thus, perfect polish will remove at least 1-2, maybe more, mm from each side of the entire blade. Whatever “damascus” picture was present, will likely be removed or significantly distorted. No serious Nihonto buff will be impressed by the final result.

We easily accept virtually any “Islamic” blade with superficial defects, patches of discoloration, occasional forging flaws etc, but the attitude of the guy from Lee’s story is typical for serious Nihonto collectors. Their acceptability criteria are just different. They are a breed apart.

The only other type of collectors who are somewhat approaching this level of perfectionism are “ wootz” collectors: witness Fiegel’s sorrowful comments on occasional microscopic slag inclusions:-)

Ariel, this blade is atypical, highly unusual, maybe it was in a fire or??? No one would have this polished without first getting the opinion of an experienced polisher who has trained in Japan and knows the traditional methods passed down from generation to generation. No good polisher would recommend polishing a Japanese blade that they thought should not be polished, the finished work would not reflect well on their reputation.

I am not sure what a "serious nihonto collector" is, there are many types, some are perfectionists some are not, it is not good to over generalize. Many people buy what they like and you can also find polished Japanese swords for a good price, often way less that the price of the polish alone.

I have a few naginata, some polished in varying degrees, some highly flawed....so do you really believe that the ones which are not "perfect" are "worthless"?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I have a few naginata, some polished in varying degrees, some highly flawed....so do you really believe that the ones which are not "perfect" are "worthless"?

No, but just by the breadth of the examples from your collection and your comments on a wide range of bladed weapons from all over the world I think you are not a “serious Nihonto collector”.

I have several Nihonto blades, but would not dare call my interest “ serious” and so, I am sure, many other Forumites. But the guy from Lee’s story was a “serious” one. Figiel was a serious Indo-Persian collector ( see his auction catalogue), Jens is a serious katars collector and often admits his lack of expertise in case of other Indian weapons.

Serious collectors concentrate on a very narrow area, but 99% of us are eclectic and have much more relaxed standards. But many, if not most of our cherished things are “worthless” in the eyes of “serious” collectors. We cherish them for their age and kisses of time, they reject them for the very same reasons.Nothing wrong with it: there are as many collections as there are collectors.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

the guy from Lee’s story was a “serious” one.

Ariel, from this statement you know that the guy who did not buy Lee's yari was a "serious collector"..... "He asked the dealer the price and then observed in response that, from losses to the engravings, it was already a bit too tired from repeated polishings".....this proves nothing, maybe the guy was just cheap, or not really interested, or....fill in the blank. So if someone collects other weapons besides Japanese blades they are disqualified from being a "serious collector"? Someone can not be a "serious collector" of both Japanese weapons and Indo-Persian weapons....I never heard that before, sounds a bit elitist to me

[ariel]

Originally Posted by estcrh

I never heard that before, sounds a bit elitist to me

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, just as I am to mine.
I am a subscriber to Sir Isaiah Berlin’s fox and hedgehog theory.

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by weapons 27

Detailed photos

Can you photograph the entire blade with all fittings removed? Is the pole round or oval?

[weapons 27]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Can you photograph the entire blade with all fittings removed? Is the pole round or oval?

here are the photos.
yes it's oval

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by weapons 27

here are the photos.
yes it's oval

Can you remove the habaki?

[weapons 27]

[QUOTE=estcrh]Can you remove the habaki?[/QUOT


photos