Shotley Bridge swordmakers

urbanspaceman · 4th October 2017, 10:39 AM

I've contacted the Blades Curator at the Royal Armouries in Leeds to enquire into the provenance of that hunting hanger with the curious fox stamp (post 75). It's listed as Shotley Bridge and I would be fairly surprised if they have got it wrong, but it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities. Just waiting to hear back from him. It's such a singular image that it may well be a one-off created for the occasion. Waiting patiently.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th October 2017, 04:25 PM

Salaams Kieth, The trouble with this animal is that it does not resemble a stick drawn wolf nor does it look like a fox... I wonder if it is a copy of the running fox mark done by who knows? We wait to see.

urbanspaceman · 4th October 2017, 08:15 PM

Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed, my thought exactly. The first thing to confirm is that it is a Shotley blade; assuming it is, then our imaginations can run amok, because - unless there is a known history - it could amount to anything. Someone went to some trouble to engrave that image though; it's not your Neanderthal stick drawing is it?
I am also looking into other marks used by the SB smiths because I can't imagine that if they were turning out the numbers of blades thus far indicated for the military, that they would be bothered chiselling Shotle Bridg et al on every blade when a tang stamp would suffice.
I'm also beginning to wonder if they ever used the Passau wolf/fox at all, or if the unfinished blades came out of Solingen already marked. How much work is done on an unfinished blade? Would it remove the marking?
There's still so much shrouded in mystery; clearly, SB sword owners are not reading this forum.

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2017, 03:46 AM

Keith , I'm glad you are contacting the RA as I would really like to hear their explanation on this one. I think you're right, there is no way they could have put out significant volume of blades and stamping or engraving all of them.
As it is, it seems only a select number of blades were so marked, and as you point out, could they have been already forged and stamped in Solingen prior to export?

In the top sword in #75, this is a Walloon type sword as thought to have been from Shotley Bridge in latter years of 17th c.
The 'wolf' seems in the proper orientation in the blade center, and the somewhat irregularly stamped letters for Shotley Bridg placed as they arrived in Newcastle. It seems that the running wolf in Solingen was always upside down, and typically in latten (brass filled) .

The second sword looks to be a hanger of mid 18th c. which of course aligns with the Birmingham works and Samuel Harvey's use of the fox. While this rendering looks atypical to the other known examples of Harvey's, it is known Dawes (perhaps others) might have also applied fox marks.

If this example could be irrefutably provenanced to Shotley Bridge it would be monumental as in my view, the fox was used by Birmingham to in effect mimic the German running wolf, in the 1750s. So why would German smiths in Shotley use a fox on a hanger blade? and when they were presumably fashioning blades for small swords? In fact, it is a puzzle why the only reference found to Shotley sword cutlers is in Aylward (1945) in the list he shows which transcends 18th c. to 1808, with about 10 names.
Possibly more will be found in Southwick, or Annis & May, both volumes listing sword makers, but cant get to my copies for a month.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th October 2017, 06:05 PM

Salaams Jim and Keith, Slightly to one side ...That odd grindstone that I was tod was leaning against a wall on the river...I never found it. but...have a look at these .... what are they....? They are from the Shotley Mill shown. look at the striatians in the stone grinder faces....

kronckew · 5th October 2017, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Jim and Keith, Slightly to one side ...That odd grindstone that I was tod was leaning against a wall on the river...I never found it. but...have a look at these .... what are they....? They are from the Shotley Mill shown. look at the striatians in the stone grinder faces....

they are millstones for grain, the striations are grooves to allow the milled flour to work it's way out and fall down into a large funnel and then into the flour sacks underneath. the cylindrical wooden structures surround the stone and have an opening for adding the grain into the centre of the upper millstone which is adjusted in distance from the lower one depending on how fine the miller wants the flour. bit like a huge coffee grinder. the stones would wear and require regrooving , the propped up ones were likely spares. after they are too thin to reuse, they get sold to architectural salvage junkyards who resell them to trendy yuppies for inclusion as features in their homes and/or gardens.

see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC-wzAML-oY

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBEagbZxc6Y

solingen knife/sword makers used a vertically mounted stone. no occupational health and safety laws back then:

Jim McDougall · 5th October 2017, 07:41 PM

Hey Wayne! thank you for joining us here on this, and especially for the great insight on these huge wheels. In many of the references I have checked, the mills were converted from grist mills for corn and perhaps others.
Could these same wheels be used for the functions required in metal work, or are the surfaces changed in some way?

This might explain the accessibility of wheels for the makers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th October 2017, 07:57 PM

Thank you for the excellent detail in your reply... I was just looking at a French sword factory and the English Reeves factory and realised the same ... The grindstone outside next to the river I was told about must have been a grain grinder and was adjacent the grain mills. I place a more ancient water wheel driven wheel arrangement for interest. Many thanks.

4th October 2017, 10:39 AM	#1
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	Royal Armouries. I've contacted the Blades Curator at the Royal Armouries in Leeds to enquire into the provenance of that hunting hanger with the curious fox stamp (post 75). It's listed as Shotley Bridge and I would be fairly surprised if they have got it wrong, but it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities. Just waiting to hear back from him. It's such a singular image that it may well be a one-off created for the occasion. Waiting patiently.

4th October 2017, 08:15 PM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 715	odd fox Hello Ibrahiim. Yes, indeed, my thought exactly. The first thing to confirm is that it is a Shotley blade; assuming it is, then our imaginations can run amok, because - unless there is a known history - it could amount to anything. Someone went to some trouble to engrave that image though; it's not your Neanderthal stick drawing is it? I am also looking into other marks used by the SB smiths because I can't imagine that if they were turning out the numbers of blades thus far indicated for the military, that they would be bothered chiselling Shotle Bridg et al on every blade when a tang stamp would suffice. I'm also beginning to wonder if they ever used the Passau wolf/fox at all, or if the unfinished blades came out of Solingen already marked. How much work is done on an unfinished blade? Would it remove the marking? There's still so much shrouded in mystery; clearly, SB sword owners are not reading this forum.

5th October 2017, 06:05 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Jim and Keith, Slightly to one side ...That odd grindstone that I was tod was leaning against a wall on the river...I never found it. but...have a look at these .... what are they....? They are from the Shotley Mill shown. look at the striatians in the stone grinder faces.... Attached Images

5th October 2017, 07:57 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Thank you for the excellent detail in your reply... I was just looking at a French sword factory and the English Reeves factory and realised the same ... The grindstone outside next to the river I was told about must have been a grain grinder and was adjacent the grain mills. I place a more ancient water wheel driven wheel arrangement for interest. Many thanks. Attached Images

4th October 2017, 04:25 PM	#2
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Kieth, The trouble with this animal is that it does not resemble a stick drawn wolf nor does it look like a fox... I wonder if it is a copy of the running fox mark done by who knows? We wait to see.

5th October 2017, 03:46 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Keith , I'm glad you are contacting the RA as I would really like to hear their explanation on this one. I think you're right, there is no way they could have put out significant volume of blades and stamping or engraving all of them. As it is, it seems only a select number of blades were so marked, and as you point out, could they have been already forged and stamped in Solingen prior to export? In the top sword in #75, this is a Walloon type sword as thought to have been from Shotley Bridge in latter years of 17th c. The 'wolf' seems in the proper orientation in the blade center, and the somewhat irregularly stamped letters for Shotley Bridg placed as they arrived in Newcastle. It seems that the running wolf in Solingen was always upside down, and typically in latten (brass filled) . The second sword looks to be a hanger of mid 18th c. which of course aligns with the Birmingham works and Samuel Harvey's use of the fox. While this rendering looks atypical to the other known examples of Harvey's, it is known Dawes (perhaps others) might have also applied fox marks. If this example could be irrefutably provenanced to Shotley Bridge it would be monumental as in my view, the fox was used by Birmingham to in effect mimic the German running wolf, in the 1750s. So why would German smiths in Shotley use a fox on a hanger blade? and when they were presumably fashioning blades for small swords? In fact, it is a puzzle why the only reference found to Shotley sword cutlers is in Aylward (1945) in the list he shows which transcends 18th c. to 1808, with about 10 names. Possibly more will be found in Southwick, or Annis & May, both volumes listing sword makers, but cant get to my copies for a month.

5th October 2017, 07:41 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,587	Hey Wayne! thank you for joining us here on this, and especially for the great insight on these huge wheels. In many of the references I have checked, the mills were converted from grist mills for corn and perhaps others. Could these same wheels be used for the functions required in metal work, or are the surfaces changed in some way? This might explain the accessibility of wheels for the makers.