A question about blade materials

Rivkin · 18th March 2006, 01:12 AM

Imho, I would completely disagree with almost everything said above.

1. Most smiths were buying steel/iron. In Caucasus in XIXth century for example they used iron files, rails and even needles. Before, it was not unusual for a smith to receive metal from a customer, either as an old sword to be completely reworked or simply as nails etc. It was also not unusual to buy iron/steel from caravans, including those from China and India. Therefore the same artisans could work with drastically different materials, even through each of them had their own preferences.

2. B. Zschokke, Du Damasse it des Lames de Damas, Rev. Met. vol. 21,635-69(1924) shows that wootz sword have neither hard edge (since it is not martensite but a very high carbon steel), neither as flexible as modern (XXth century) steel. It is also inferior to modern mechanical damascus.

Sincerely yours,

Kirill Rivkin

not2sharp · 18th March 2006, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Before, it was not unusual for a smith to receive metal from a customer, either as an old sword to be completely reworked or simply as nails etc. It was also not unusual to buy iron/steel from caravans, including those from China and India.

Wouldn't one technology eventually replace the other? If you had a good source of steel coming along a trade route wouldn't that soon replace local steel production? Keep in mind that every time you switch steels the smith has to experiment to find the correct hardening and tempering process.

n2s

Rivkin · 18th March 2006, 03:28 AM

Technology to some extent is a matter of taste and skill - some people like differential tempering, some mechanical damascus and some like wootz. It is hard to say for certain which one was better even in XVIIth century because skill is more of a determining factor than technology. Concerning trade routes - they were never stable. The profit for a typical caravan was very significant, but highly risky - virtually anyone could simply attack it for the cargo. At the same time even if people relied to some extent on some source of iron, different people had different preferencies concerning how they are going to make _their_ steel - how much camel's urine and how much blood of a sacrificial lamb they would use in their recipe (seriously). In short - same region, Caucasus, same village - Amazga, same timeframe will have everything - wootz, mechanical damascus, differential tempering, fully tempered steel etc. etc. The sources for ore would be everything from old weapons, western supplies, captured russian guns, India etc.

18th March 2006, 01:12 AM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Imho, I would completely disagree with almost everything said above. 1. Most smiths were buying steel/iron. In Caucasus in XIXth century for example they used iron files, rails and even needles. Before, it was not unusual for a smith to receive metal from a customer, either as an old sword to be completely reworked or simply as nails etc. It was also not unusual to buy iron/steel from caravans, including those from China and India. Therefore the same artisans could work with drastically different materials, even through each of them had their own preferences. 2. B. Zschokke, Du Damasse it des Lames de Damas, Rev. Met. vol. 21,635-69(1924) shows that wootz sword have neither hard edge (since it is not martensite but a very high carbon steel), neither as flexible as modern (XXth century) steel. It is also inferior to modern mechanical damascus. Sincerely yours, Kirill Rivkin

18th March 2006, 03:28 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Technology to some extent is a matter of taste and skill - some people like differential tempering, some mechanical damascus and some like wootz. It is hard to say for certain which one was better even in XVIIth century because skill is more of a determining factor than technology. Concerning trade routes - they were never stable. The profit for a typical caravan was very significant, but highly risky - virtually anyone could simply attack it for the cargo. At the same time even if people relied to some extent on some source of iron, different people had different preferencies concerning how they are going to make _their_ steel - how much camel's urine and how much blood of a sacrificial lamb they would use in their recipe (seriously). In short - same region, Caucasus, same village - Amazga, same timeframe will have everything - wootz, mechanical damascus, differential tempering, fully tempered steel etc. etc. The sources for ore would be everything from old weapons, western supplies, captured russian guns, India etc.