Old Omani Saif

TVV · 1st October 2017, 10:33 PM

Ibrahiim,

I am not going to get dragged into a pointless debate about your theory which contradicts all the period accounts, drawings and existent examples of Omani swords.

If you are trying to imply that a master bladesmith of Rick Furrer's ability is making kattara blades to fit to old hilts, you are seriously risking losing whatever credibility left you have here, with me at least. I am afraid I am reaching the point where I will be forced to simply start ignoring your posts as spam.

Teodor

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd October 2017, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Ibrahiim,

I am not going to get dragged into a pointless debate about your theory which contradicts all the period accounts, drawings and existent examples of Omani swords.

If you are trying to imply that a master bladesmith of Rick Furrer's ability is making kattara blades to fit to old hilts, you are seriously risking losing whatever credibility left you have here, with me at least. I am afraid I am reaching the point where I will be forced to simply start ignoring your posts as spam.

Teodor

Where did I say that? I am very much aware of who is making what blades in the market and that is why I suggested the information... I never mentioned any names whatsoever...The person you name is highly respected . Your remark is nonsensical...and insulting. My remarks are based on solid hands-on research of over 30 years where I assure you I have handled hundreds of Omani swords...which simply reinforce my viewpoint despite the baseless nonsense you place at this thread...Kattara blades? I think you have that slightly wrong... Straight blades are Sayf. Your descriptive "Kattara" are curved.

Kubur · 2nd October 2017, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Ibrahiim,

I am not going to get dragged into a pointless debate about your theory which contradicts all the period accounts, drawings and existent examples of Omani swords.

If you are trying to imply that a master bladesmith of Rick Furrer's ability is making kattara blades to fit to old hilts, you are seriously risking losing whatever credibility left you have here, with me at least. I am afraid I am reaching the point where I will be forced to simply start ignoring your posts as spam.

Teodor

Sorry Ibrahim, but I support Teodor. He absolutely right and I myself stopped to read these posts on Omani and nimcha things since a long time.

ariel · 2nd October 2017, 10:12 AM

The handle sports new rivets. The implications are obvious.

Re- use of parts is virtually expected in case of old “Oriental” swords: they utilized parts of organic nature. But wood shrinks or rots, mastique dries and crumbles, bone cracks and breaks.

I do not think it might be possible to pinpoint the age of restoration of this sword short of full disassembling it . But the good thing is that all components look very old.

A.alnakkas · 2nd October 2017, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The handle sports new rivets. The implications are obvious.

Re- use of parts is virtually expected in case of old “Oriental” swords: they utilized parts of organic nature. But wood shrinks or rots, mastique dries and crumbles, bone cracks and breaks.

I do not think it might be possible to pinpoint the age of restoration of this sword short of full disassembling it . But the good thing is that all components look very old.

As mentioned, these are still valued in Oman and go through many restorations and even are fitted with new silver parts to sort of make them presentation worthy. The rivets while in appearance seem 'new' are not negative indications.

I have no information about how old is the blade, the wootz is clear and the condition does not suggest a newly made blade. Nor does a mismatched patina between handle and blade suggest much... how many shamshirs are there with excellent polished blades and pitted quillons? we all know why.

Teodor, nice sword! it is called saif Yamani and saif Ya'rubi as well by Omanis in an effort to try to pinpoint its origin.

TVV · 2nd October 2017, 05:21 PM

Thank you Lotfi,

Is the Saif Ya'Rubi name based on the Ya-Rubi dynasty?

Teodor

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2017, 06:04 PM

The swords of Arabia have always intrigued me, particularly as I began to learn more on their place in the complex history and development of sword types, as well as in the web of trade blade movement.
In the many years I have studied swords' history, it was only in probably the past decade that I began to better understand, actually more in beginning to recognize the pieces in a complicated jig saw puzzle.

Like Teodor, I always wanted one of these old Omani swords, and had since seeing them in Elgood's book on Arabian arms years ago. When I finally acquired am Omani sa'f (the form known colloquially as 'kattara') I was delighted, and it was at a time over 20 years ago when these were rarely seen available. I felt I had achieved a sort of 'milestone' in just having an example.

It was not until a number of years ago that I met Ibrahiim here, and must admit that at first I was reticent to accept some of the information and detail he was proposing on these Omani swords. After a time I realized what he was revealing was soundly field researched as he is of course situated in the very regions these weapons have been used, and unfortunately, as often the case in ethnographic arms, being 'commercially' crafted.

I was also impressed by the comprehensive research he tenaciously had applied in learning more historically on how and why these weapons were developed. There was remarkably present, the kind of dynastic volatility and use of weaponry in regalia and ceremony which has in so many cases called for dramatic establishment of legitimacy in changes in rule.

Our discussions here have afforded us incredible opportunity to examine and present evidence toward the understanding of the history and development of the many weapon forms which have remained simply this or that in books and cataloques, without any dimension for far too many years.

We have achieved more than was ever even imaginable over these past two decades here, and advanced knowledge on so many arms forms and topics.

That is the focus, and we absolutely must give up the false notion of 'debate' and personal conflict for the positive and constructive value of discussion..that is presenting observations and evidence for consideration.

We have everything to gain, and too much to lose wasting time with debates (well described as 'pointless' ) and the opportunity to learn together as we have always done here.

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2017, 06:37 PM

As Ariel has pointed out, obviously this blade is newly mounted, and the hilt clearly has age. As he also well notes, weapons were often remounted through generations, not just to replenish non durable components such as hilts and coverings etc.

To me it seems a blade of such esteem as made with wootz, at least in most I have seen, are mounted in more elaborate context than in a relatively austere hilt like this.

The wootz blades as mentioned, were indeed highly prized in their various forms in India, Central Asia, and many places but I would point out that the favor of Solingen blades was more about the fact that they became more readily available. Also, wootz had circumstantial downsides in that it could be brittle and non battle worthy in many cases as noted in Pant.

The Solingen industrial machine was more on volume than cost, and actually its permeation of many blade producing centers went on for centuries before the inception of the longer blade and guardless hilt of the Omani saif known as kattara. This adaption seems to have taken place sometime in the second half of the 18th century, and as has been discussed, the use of lighter blades was keenly favored for the purpose of certain ceremonial events.

The presence of German blades was hardly a phenomenon in Arabia any more than India, Africa, Red Sea regions or many other trade entrepots in many locations. Their presence in Yemen was of course through such trade, and they diffused accordingly and certainly into Omani regions. The term Yemen, as I understand, was used rather collectively and broadly in earlier times, so the 'Yemeni' appellation refers to place where blades were from.
This seems to have been an Islamic convention used from the earliest times, describing a blade by place of origin, often thus calling the sword accordingly.

TVV · 2nd October 2017, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

To me it seems a blade of such esteem as made with wootz, at least in most I have seen, are mounted in more elaborate context than in a relatively austere hilt like this.

Jim,

Thank you for your very thoughtful posts, as always.

To address your statement above that a wootz blade would be expected to have more elaborate dress, I am posting a couple of pictures from Oriental Arms sold archive of another Saif Yamani (or Saif Ya'Rubi) with a wootz blade and a fairly simple and similar hilt. Of course, nothing precludes both hilts from having had some silver decoration at one point, but it has been lost due to age (or for reuse in jewelry) and the only traces that remain are the silver wire inlay on the pommel of the sword I posted.

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=5903

Regards,
Teodor

Kubur · 2nd October 2017, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This seems to have been an Islamic convention used from the earliest times, describing a blade by place of origin, often thus calling the sword accordingly.

On this topic I suggest to read this excellent book.

Kubur · 2nd October 2017, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

We have achieved more than was ever even imaginable over these past two decades here, and advanced knowledge on so many arms forms and topics.

Well Jim, I disagree on this one, or let's say not always: quoting Wikipedia all the time and using Google search for pictures is not research...

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2017, 08:13 PM

Thank you Teodor. It seems it has been thought from the 1990s that these type hilts must have had some sort of silver cladding or decoration which has been invariably removed presumably for the silver or other decoration. It seems odd though that no example of antiquity exists in its full dress. The only examples of such dress are several regalia oriented examples which were mounted in more modern times in Oman.

I suppose that there are no real guidelines for the pairing of types of blades and hilts as there are many instances of for example, officers blades mounted in rather pedestrian other ranks hilts, but it seems unusual.

Jim McDougall · 2nd October 2017, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Well Jim, I disagree on this one, or let's say not always: quoting Wikipedia all the time and using Google search for pictures is not research...

Hi Kubur,
Thanks for the reference to that title, always helpful to have these and I don't have that particular book.
Actually often I have certain book titles, but in the months of the year I am on the road, I don't have them with me.
In those times, I rely heavily on material found online, and I do use a Google search engine.

As many here are aware, I have researched arms and armor for quite a long time (most of my life), and in fact in the early days it was done with letters and book searches through stores or interlibrary loans and tons of photocopies. I still prefer books, but obviously, these days research is remarkably facilitated by the web!! especially when books or material is not readily available.

In researching, I have never relied on a single source for conclusive observations or assertions, and as any researcher or responsible author will say, you must cross check everything. Above all, one cannot use museum descriptions nor especially sales catalog entries with that caveat.

Wikipedia is what I consider a valuable resource as a quick reference, and a bench mark for further research or sources. From there, one can move to other references which can be either reliably considered or not, depending on the outcome of your cross check.

Pin Interest is somewhat frustrating at times as it leaves one with tempting photos, but little detail, however, if one pursues, often it is linked to either sites or other references.

When I commented on how much has been achieved here, I meant the interaction, discussion and sharing of experience and knowledge of the membership in learning together. There are many degrees and kinds of research methods, but overall I think most everyone here has offered contributions to achieving the advances I mentioned.

I personally chose to value each contribution and evaluate it much the way I do the material I find in books, papers or any resource, including Wikipedia and others.

1st October 2017, 10:33 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Ibrahiim, I am not going to get dragged into a pointless debate about your theory which contradicts all the period accounts, drawings and existent examples of Omani swords. If you are trying to imply that a master bladesmith of Rick Furrer's ability is making kattara blades to fit to old hilts, you are seriously risking losing whatever credibility left you have here, with me at least. I am afraid I am reaching the point where I will be forced to simply start ignoring your posts as spam. Teodor Last edited by TVV; 1st October 2017 at 10:56 PM.

2nd October 2017, 10:12 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The handle sports new rivets. The implications are obvious. Re- use of parts is virtually expected in case of old “Oriental” swords: they utilized parts of organic nature. But wood shrinks or rots, mastique dries and crumbles, bone cracks and breaks. I do not think it might be possible to pinpoint the age of restoration of this sword short of full disassembling it . But the good thing is that all components look very old.

2nd October 2017, 05:21 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Thank you Lotfi, Is the Saif Ya'Rubi name based on the Ya-Rubi dynasty? Teodor

2nd October 2017, 06:04 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	The swords of Arabia have always intrigued me, particularly as I began to learn more on their place in the complex history and development of sword types, as well as in the web of trade blade movement. In the many years I have studied swords' history, it was only in probably the past decade that I began to better understand, actually more in beginning to recognize the pieces in a complicated jig saw puzzle. Like Teodor, I always wanted one of these old Omani swords, and had since seeing them in Elgood's book on Arabian arms years ago. When I finally acquired am Omani sa'f (the form known colloquially as 'kattara') I was delighted, and it was at a time over 20 years ago when these were rarely seen available. I felt I had achieved a sort of 'milestone' in just having an example. It was not until a number of years ago that I met Ibrahiim here, and must admit that at first I was reticent to accept some of the information and detail he was proposing on these Omani swords. After a time I realized what he was revealing was soundly field researched as he is of course situated in the very regions these weapons have been used, and unfortunately, as often the case in ethnographic arms, being 'commercially' crafted. I was also impressed by the comprehensive research he tenaciously had applied in learning more historically on how and why these weapons were developed. There was remarkably present, the kind of dynastic volatility and use of weaponry in regalia and ceremony which has in so many cases called for dramatic establishment of legitimacy in changes in rule. Our discussions here have afforded us incredible opportunity to examine and present evidence toward the understanding of the history and development of the many weapon forms which have remained simply this or that in books and cataloques, without any dimension for far too many years. We have achieved more than was ever even imaginable over these past two decades here, and advanced knowledge on so many arms forms and topics. That is the focus, and we absolutely must give up the false notion of 'debate' and personal conflict for the positive and constructive value of discussion..that is presenting observations and evidence for consideration. We have everything to gain, and too much to lose wasting time with debates (well described as 'pointless' ) and the opportunity to learn together as we have always done here.

2nd October 2017, 06:37 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	As Ariel has pointed out, obviously this blade is newly mounted, and the hilt clearly has age. As he also well notes, weapons were often remounted through generations, not just to replenish non durable components such as hilts and coverings etc. To me it seems a blade of such esteem as made with wootz, at least in most I have seen, are mounted in more elaborate context than in a relatively austere hilt like this. The wootz blades as mentioned, were indeed highly prized in their various forms in India, Central Asia, and many places but I would point out that the favor of Solingen blades was more about the fact that they became more readily available. Also, wootz had circumstantial downsides in that it could be brittle and non battle worthy in many cases as noted in Pant. The Solingen industrial machine was more on volume than cost, and actually its permeation of many blade producing centers went on for centuries before the inception of the longer blade and guardless hilt of the Omani saif known as kattara. This adaption seems to have taken place sometime in the second half of the 18th century, and as has been discussed, the use of lighter blades was keenly favored for the purpose of certain ceremonial events. The presence of German blades was hardly a phenomenon in Arabia any more than India, Africa, Red Sea regions or many other trade entrepots in many locations. Their presence in Yemen was of course through such trade, and they diffused accordingly and certainly into Omani regions. The term Yemen, as I understand, was used rather collectively and broadly in earlier times, so the 'Yemeni' appellation refers to place where blades were from. This seems to have been an Islamic convention used from the earliest times, describing a blade by place of origin, often thus calling the sword accordingly.

2nd October 2017, 08:13 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Thank you Teodor. It seems it has been thought from the 1990s that these type hilts must have had some sort of silver cladding or decoration which has been invariably removed presumably for the silver or other decoration. It seems odd though that no example of antiquity exists in its full dress. The only examples of such dress are several regalia oriented examples which were mounted in more modern times in Oman. I suppose that there are no real guidelines for the pairing of types of blades and hilts as there are many instances of for example, officers blades mounted in rather pedestrian other ranks hilts, but it seems unusual.