Shotley Bridge swordmakers

[urbanspaceman]

To simplify matters in my postings, I want to refer to the tri-form blades - be they colichmarde or otherwise - as history has done and call them Hollow Blades; which, unfortunately, is a poor term, as a hollow in a blade can mean a fuller or simply mean a hollow ground edge re. sharpening techniques; but nevertheless...
So my question is this: of the English hollow blade short-swords in existence today, do they feature any blade markings? If so, can anyone tell me what those markings are?
Coming back to Shotley: I've been considering the issue of a three-wheel grinding machine, inasmuch as I cannot find any evidence that they brought one with them; the declaration cited in the Charter by Sir Stephen Evance only states that they used such a machine in Solingen - not that they brought one with them. However, let's be realistic here: even if they didn't bring one with them, and it seems reasonable to suppose such an enterprise was impractical, they would certainly not be at a loss to manufacture one in Shotley Bridge once they got settled. So, the top and bottom of it all is that they could have produced innumerable hollow blade short-swords, if that was what was demanded.
But! The three original smiths who arrived in SB in 1685 had to be supplemented by an additional nineteen families two years later; so if the first three had no experience of the specialist grinding machine - which is not unlikely, considering they had been in England since the Hounslow days - then the new arrivals certainly did. Yet bringing nineteen families and no grinding machine indicates that the original enterprise of producing hollow blade short-swords was abandoned almost immediately as a result of the inevitable enormous demand for military blades.
Having established a company and acquired Crown approval the Company changed hands rather quickly, and two members were removed and new names introduced: such as Sir Stephen Evance; this was the transition from producing Hollow Blades as a primary enterprise to the beginnings of the dubious business practices thereafter.
At the SB end, I think that being exclusively able to supply hollow blade swords might have been of some prestige, but there is no way that it could compare fiscally with arming thousands and thousands of soldiers. Although, according to the Cotesworth documents, they were being screwed for every penny, to the extent they couldn't pay their bills; mind-you, that is a common enough excuse amongst workers throughout history, and considering Oley's wealth later on, at worst purely temporary.
This is why I am interested to learn what markings were on the hollow blade short-swords here in England at the turn of the century, is it not almost certain that they came from Germany. (When did they begin producing them in Klingenthal? It must have been decades earlier. Did we not import from there?) The statement made to the courts when Mohll was on trial was that the blades found in the river were of a type only produced in Shotley Bridge. Who says? How did they know? Why were the blades not Solingen products? After-all, the ship was coming from Rotterdam. Was that purely to evade a smuggling charge? Very grey area!
The more you delve into this business, the murkier it becomes, unless the obvious is not that obvious after-all.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The more you delve into this business, the murkier it becomes, unless the obvious is not that obvious after-all.

Salaams Kieth,
Do you realize you used a very interesting phrase above...Delve ! This is old German...to dig!! and I believe the German miners who came to England at the time were the ones initially digging at one site...They must have named it after the German word. In Delves Lane. About 5 miles from Shotley Bridge.. at Consett the nearest town.

From one of your pdfs~
Of course, the steel had to be of the highest quality, and certainly the swordsmiths would try to ensure this, by overseeing the various processes rigorously. In the beginning the Germans seem personally to have sought out and extracted the ore from sites along the Derwent and in
the surrounding countryside. One area where they almost certainly dug (or delved) was later known as the Delfts; later still this gave rise to the name of the road leading to the site (now part of Consett) - Delves Lane, at that time of course open land. Local lore also said there was a seam near Hownes Gill, known as the German Bands Seam, worked by the Oleys.ll.

[urbanspaceman]

Hello Ibrahiim. I do stuff like that all the time, then wait for someone to pick up on it; and no-one ever does (till today!).
I've realised most folk don't read and digest anymore; I think it has something to do with writing becoming the major form of communication, instead of vocally conversing.
Now that my seem oxymoronic, but texting and emailing reduces the majority of writing to bare-bones and abbreviations.
It never fails to amaze and irritate me that, despite planning my missives carefully, and proof reading at least twice, people often don't get the message.
At first I thought it was my poor communication skills - till I realised the truth: 'haste!'
Often, when someone is faced with a screen-full of words, they speed-read and assume; which means that half the time, much of importance gets missed.
However, it does not surprise me that folks on this forum read and ruminate.
Delightfully, both you and Jim regard brevity as unnecessary... me too.
We are all on a permanent learning curve here; otherwise, what's the point?
Thank-you.

[urbanspaceman]

From the Royal Armouries in Leeds[IMG]

[urbanspaceman]

Note the orientation of the image on the blade.

[urbanspaceman]

[IMG]
One of the above is definitely number 11 but minus the crown, and that's a variation on the wolf right? Not a fox.
I'm suspicious of the Hunting Hanger as it doesn't say Shotley or Bridge, and the animal looks more like a lion; I wonder if the RA have got it wrong and it's not an SB blade?

[Jim McDougall]

Keith, that is excellent....the orientation of the fox in the second image, which surprisingly a 'fox' NOT the running wolf of German character. If this can indeed be proven SHOTLEY, then this would dispel the idea that the fox simile of Birmingham never occurred there.
The other Shotley blades are clearly marked to that place along with the German running wolf.

This hanger with running fox is curiously similar to the Birmingham use of that image, which as I described earlier, in my opinion was quite plausibly a keenly placed simile of the British fox used in the manner of the famed running wolf of Germany.

As I mentioned, in Shakespeare, one instance ( Henry V, Act IV, scene 4; "..thou diest on point of fox". The term was used to describe a well made sword, of course probably Solingen blade rapier.

With Birmingham struggling to regain their market share against the long emplaced German domination, it would seem remarkably clever to use the fox in place of the highly esteemed German running wolf, and in its character.

I came across another case of these markings, surprisingly in an American hanger c. 1755-83, in Neumann p.88, 81.S ("Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", 1973). The blade seems clearly of the German form which also became produced in Birmingham c. 1755. It must be remembered of course that America was at this time a British colony, and though the blade is described as German made......it has the running wolf..but on both sides of blade, and with a star.

Germany, as I mentioned, was not as far as I know using the running wolf this late. Further, it was not on both sides of the blade, only on one, and typically latten (brass) filled.

This example has the same fuller as the Birmingham blades, but has been shortened to about 20" from the usual 27". Obviously it has been rehilted with brass guard and antler hilt in British manner.

While I cannot see the mark, whether fox or wolf, the dual application is atypical, as is the star of some type.

We have seen that makers in Birmingham intended to capitalize on the German use of the wolf, and while Harvey's fox is well known, it seems almost certain that other makers may have used variations of either wolf or fox.
That may account for the blade on Keith's sword, which has the canine figure on both sides, however degenerated or poorly applied on one. Also that use of a star MAY have been applied in tandem with the wolf on some blades made by some yet undiscovered maker there.

[urbanspaceman]

Just to wander off Piste again: is this an indication of a re-hilt?
[IMG]

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

From the Royal Armouries in Leeds[IMG]

The Fox ...ie Bushy Tail... is not a Shotley stamp...Birmingham. The twig constructed wolf is Solingen and also done by Shotley. (hardly surprising since the sword makers, were as we know, mainly from there) The chart shows several different styles of twig constructed Wolf but none can be relied upon to date swords ...as every school was capable of knocking up a simply designed stamp like those...One Mallet and a chisel!

As noted by Jim the mentions of Fox by William Shakespeare must have been reference to the Solingen mark since he died in 1616...well before the Birmingham Samuel Harvey worked at Sword making in Birmingham 1748 til 1778.

[Jim McDougall]

I have always wondered on the Passau/later Solingen wolf, which seems to have its origins in Passau quite early in around 14th century I believe, need to recheck that history. But the point is, these chop marked images are notoriously individual, invariably as a matter of fact.

They were clearly not makers marks or stamps, but suggestions are of course that they were originally some sort of guild mark. Yet they seem to be almost regularly applied, but using chisel, not stamped.

I recall once trying to find any blade which could be proven to the same maker or shop with matching wolf marks. I don't think there ever were, but once there might have been....still need to retrace notes.

The chart showing variations with years is from Wagner, "Cut & Thrust Weapons", Prague, 1967. Eduard Wagner was a museum curator, and appears to have compiled these examples from sword blades he had seen or catalogued, but that is just my presumption. There has never been any sort of pattern or consistency to any of these, so chronological development, as implied in the chart, is completely implausible.

It is almost as if the chiseling of the 'wolf' was an imbuement, and its artistic value irrelevant, but temporally observed as perhaps talismanic as much as indicative of quality. Possibly the worker who emplaced the mark felt a certain individual embellishment as a kind of personal touch.
We have seen this in many well known markings, which sometimes have deviations or nuances which might signify different family member or workshop or possibly even a heraldic kind of placement. We can only speculate as we search records, public listings and genealogical data, and evaluate examples on weapons as they are discovered.

I think the Harvey use of the fox was brilliant, and well placed in the history of this canine marking phenomenon, and the lore of swords and blades.


Still working on the problem of the Shotley blades. It seems that the Hollow Sword Blade Co. was of course a front to syndicate a bank for some very dubious ventures. The Bank of England held the monopoly on banking, so the idea of setting up sword making in these regions was somewhat under those auspices. With the advent of the political struggles that were then developing, one cannot help thinking that a supply source was intended with Jacobite leanings.

As far as finding small sword blades which are English, there are surely references which do list makers, but most attention seems given to the hilt makers which were often jewelers, goldsmiths and various outfitters.
What is most significant on the listings of Shotley in Aylward is that it refers to 'sword cutlers', and of these, the Mohl's were listed as GRINDERS and proprietors, and the Oley's listed as BLADESMITHS and proprietors.

It seems that the idea of bringing in forged and incomplete blades was indeed taking place, as we see from Mohl and his captured shipment from Rotterdam. Holland was a point of departure for blades from Solingen as the Netherlands were key international arms dealings. Many German smiths from Solingen, so the blades may well have been made there. There are profound similarities in the character of Dutch and English swords of this era.

We need to check "European Court and Hunting Swords" Bashford Dean, 1929, as it has thorough listings of many swords which perhaps might have some clues toward the blades. I don't have copy at hand unfortunately.
Auction sales catalogs such as Bonhams, Christies and others are goldmines of such detail as well.

As noted, we are not noted for brevity here, but sharing as much data as possible presents opportunity for solid thinking in solving these age old mysteries.

[urbanspaceman]

I've contacted the Blades Curator at the Royal Armouries in Leeds to enquire into the provenance of that hunting hanger with the curious fox stamp (post 75). It's listed as Shotley Bridge and I would be fairly surprised if they have got it wrong, but it's not beyond the bounds of possibilities. Just waiting to hear back from him. It's such a singular image that it may well be a one-off created for the occasion. Waiting patiently.